Ok, people who are against gun control are going to hate me for this one.

[Max E.]

Shouldn't be using a long rifle with high caliber bullets for home defense anyway. Should be using a shotgun, or a handgun with hollow tips. Anyone using an automatic rifle for home defense is insane.

Doesnt that prove the point? Why do you need a machine gun for self defense? When i was in Cambodia i watched a guy take out a cow with an RPG for a thousand bucks.

It was pretty spectacular but, Im sure we would both agree thats just excessive.

 

[Tsing Tao]

Doesnt that prove the point? Why do you need a machine gun for self defense?

You don't. Again, I never said you did.

In fact, the practicality of using such a weapon for home defense is non-existent.

 

[fhl]

I was reading an article written by a swat team guy and he said that he personally recommends semi auto when entering a building, but he also said the most common directive you hear in the swat community is to go full auto.

 

[Tsing Tao]

I was reading an article written by a swat team guy and he said that he personally recommends semi auto when entering a building, but he also said the most common directive you hear in the swat community is to go full auto.

They probably mean burst when they say full auto, though I'm not sure. Full auto is very reckless. Not to say there aren't reckless officers, but these guys train heavily. They train for tight grouping on the range and you don't get that with automatic fire.

 

[fhl]

They probably mean burst when they say full auto, though I'm not sure. Full auto is very reckless. Not to say there aren't reckless officers, but these guys train heavily. They train for tight grouping on the range and you don't get that with automatic fire.

I got it here:


"I have seen and heard some SOPs from different agencies about how they carry their weapons on entries, and some of the comments and situations have sparked some thought in my overworked nugget. I have asked some agencies why they carry M-4 rifles into homes on Full Auto. What is the reasoning behind the carrying an assault rifle on full automatic fire into a residence? If you elect to do this, I urge you to be able to answer the question of why you do it and how can you justify it. So some of my questions are: How do you carry your weapons in an entry? Do you carry them on Full Auto, Semi or Burst? What kind of weapon do you carry as an entry weapon?

I am aware that these questions have potential for much debate in the tactical arena and firearms world. I have been a Firearms Instructor for a tactical team for several years. I have quite a bit of military training that parallels the civilian tactical side and want to pose some “food for thought”. I have heard time and time again “put them on auto for entry” when dealing with M-4 Assault Rifles. I do not believe there is a definitive answer whether you should or should not...."

https://www.policeone.com/swat/articles/4274548-A-SWAT-operators-entry-weapon-of-choice/

 

[Tsing Tao]

I got it here:


"I have seen and heard some SOPs from different agencies about how they carry their weapons on entries, and some of the comments and situations have sparked some thought in my overworked nugget. I have asked some agencies why they carry M-4 rifles into homes on Full Auto. What is the reasoning behind the carrying an assault rifle on full automatic fire into a residence? If you elect to do this, I urge you to be able to answer the question of why you do it and how can you justify it. So some of my questions are: How do you carry your weapons in an entry? Do you carry them on Full Auto, Semi or Burst? What kind of weapon do you carry as an entry weapon?

I am aware that these questions have potential for much debate in the tactical arena and firearms world. I have been a Firearms Instructor for a tactical team for several years. I have quite a bit of military training that parallels the civilian tactical side and want to pose some “food for thought”. I have heard time and time again “put them on auto for entry” when dealing with M-4 Assault Rifles. I do not believe there is a definitive answer whether you should or should not...."

https://www.policeone.com/swat/articles/4274548-A-SWAT-operators-entry-weapon-of-choice/

I think that is a fantastic article, written by an instructor who has comprehensively thought through the engagement scenario. Not surprising I would say that, though, as he has supported all of my comments in this thread.

Military uses auto for its suppressive nature, and that's it.
LEOs that use full auto are asking for trouble and collateral damage.

He does bring up an excellent possibility as to the why of the "enter on auto" training - assuming that training is still provided, which I am in doubt about. He suggests the advice to enter will full auto goes back to when SMGs were used, and it took multiple rounds of a lesser caliber to stop an individual. Nowadays with the 5.56 NATO round, it does not. So, it is not needed.

 

[CaptainObvious]

I think that is a fantastic article, written by an instructor who has comprehensively thought through the engagement scenario. Not surprising I would say that, though, as he has supported all of my comments in this thread.

Military uses auto for its suppressive nature, and that's it.
LEOs that use full auto are asking for trouble and collateral damage.

He does bring up an excellent possibility as to the why of the "enter on auto" training - assuming that training is still provided, which I am in doubt about. He suggests the advice to enter will full auto goes back to when SMGs were used, and it took multiple rounds of a lesser caliber to stop an individual. Nowadays with the 5.56 NATO round, it does not. So, it is not needed.

I was going to write something similar. Full automatic fire is effective when trying to suppress enemy fire while other personnel move into a more advantageous position. It is however very useful in a target rich environment where you want to expend as many rounds as possible knowing the opportunity to hit someone is much more likely. The LV shooter had a target rich environment. Tens of thousands in a relatively small area. I still wonder why he had so much weaponry in the room which one would consider more defensive, and the monitoring he had set up? Seemed like he was preparing for a fight to the death ,and then he just offs himself. Doesn't quite add up.

 

[userque]

I was going to write something similar. Full automatic fire is effective when trying to suppress enemy fire while other personnel move into a more advantageous position. It is however very useful in a target rich environment where you want to expend as many rounds as possible knowing the opportunity to hit someone is much more likely. The LV shooter had a target rich environment. Tens of thousands in a relatively small area. I still wonder why he had so much weaponry in the room which one would consider more defensive, and the monitoring he had set up? Seemed like he was preparing for a fight to the death ,and then he just offs himself. Doesn't quite add up.

Maybe he wasn't alone. Maybe he was expecting an accomplice(s) that didn't show. Maybe an accomplice(s) left early. There were two broken windows.

 

[AAAintheBeltway]

With all due respect, AAA, that's a hypothesis only.

You're right. But the FBI was assuring us almost before the smoke cleared that he had nothing to do with ISIS. I'm curious to learn more about the wife or GF. There is a muslim terrorist group in the Philippines which has been engaged in an insurrection for years.

Seems like three possibilities. One, crazy guy. Two, political. Three, islamist terrorism, like ISIS already claimed.

 

[AAAintheBeltway]

I agree with Max that there is no need for this stock, but that doesn't mean I agree with him that it can be banned. I don't see how it can be banned.

They make bump stocks but the guy in the video appeared to have a standard adjustable stock. He hooked his trigger finger in his belt loop, which is not exactly a technique they teach in self defense courses. It's a style of shooting, not a piece of equipment so much.

I suppose you could prevent it by delaying the trigger reset. That would certainly fit the typical liberal pattern of turning useful gear into annoying crap to prevent some guy from using a lawn mower to cut his hair.

The other thing is, bump firing an AR is no where near the cyclic rate of a full auto AR. Like you said, if you aren't aiming carefully, you can cycle a semi-auto AR pretty darn fast. I wonder if it has even been proved that he was bump firing.