Paradise Lost

[Zzzz1]

A few points in reply if I may:

* why would you give up personal integrity? Is it immoral to believe in God and accept the gift of salvation? What makes it immoral? Or what makes it dishonest? Cause those exactly define integrity.

* your point on human reasoning only applies if you assume humans are all knowing and all understanding, which is clearly far from even remotely the case. Heck, we understand at most a tiny fraction of the human brain, we have a lot of wild theories about the creation of this earth but zero proof. That aside the point that believing in matter, colliding to create life forms and knowing nothing where that matter actually came from, is probably the most ridiculous theory of them all, more preposterous than believing in any sort of creator. My point is that you applying "human reasoning" here gets you very quickly on a slippery path.

* I do not count fear as reason for my decision to believe. I am not believing because I otherwise would end up separated from God into eternity. Not sure about others, though. Superstition? Sure, a lot of it. Why is that wrong, when you push your buy and sell buttons on your trading front app as function of how your back aches. Are you saying there does not exist anything supernatural in this world? Its all made up?

* Some may have faith out of selfish motivations, some Japanese even look to be completely covered by believing in 5 faiths altogether...you know..."just to be safe". But you should not define faith based on what you observe in some individuals. Neither should Christianity and Christians be defined by what we observe about Trump following evangelicals. (kind of hard to reconcile a belief in Jesus with anger to the degree of wanting to assassinate the political opponent if she comes to power).

Lastly, maybe we can leave platitudes and cynicism outside in this exchange? $10 does not buy salvation, in fact no money in the world does. If some feel better after tithing may I suggest they do it for the wrong reasons? Tithes and offerings are sacrifices, hopefully coming from a joyful heart to acknowledge that we are merely stewards of the resources, given to us, rather than owners.

Sounds like you had some very bad experience in church or with Christians. May I suggest that when discussing or debating or even making up one's mind on something so life impacting that it often requires going to the source and working through the information at source rather than deriving it from "middle men" in often altered form? Have you read the bible in its entirety?

Thanks for your courteous inquiry and indeed, let's put the religiously motivated linguistic theatrics of replacing the word forfeit with the word gift - aside.

Apart from the cost of losing one's personal integrity, it is required to give up human reasoning to believe in God ideas, that have no grounding other than in fear and superstition. I suggest that is a hefty cost.

The self-interested affectations of religious faith and the - take it or leave it gifts you can't refuse - from its God, promising to overcome a dread fostered mostly by itself is no gift, and there is certainly no grace in it.

But if one considers the forsaking of such rectitude as no biggy, then the cost of indulgence will still be some $10 whenever the plate comes round.

 

[AAAintheBeltway]

A few points in reply if I may:

* why would you give up personal integrity? Is it immoral to believe in God and accept the gift of salvation? What makes it immoral? Or what makes it dishonest? Cause those exactly define integrity.

* your point on human reasoning only applies if you assume humans are all knowing and all understanding, which is clearly far from even remotely the case. Heck, we understand at most a tiny fraction of the human brain, we have a lot of wild theories about the creation of this earth but zero proof. That aside the point that believing in matter, colliding to create life forms and knowing nothing where that matter actually came from, is probably the most ridiculous theory of them all, more preposterous than believing in any sort of creator. My point is that you applying "human reasoning" here gets you very quickly on a slippery path.

* I do not count fear as reason for my decision to believe. I am not believing because I otherwise would end up separated from God into eternity. Not sure about others, though. Superstition? Sure, a lot of it. Why is that wrong, when you push your buy and sell buttons on your trading front app as function of how your back aches. Are you saying there does not exist anything supernatural in this world? Its all made up?

* Some may have faith out of selfish motivations, some Japanese even look to be completely covered by believing in 5 faiths altogether...you know..."just to be safe". But you should not define faith based on what you observe in some individuals. Neither should Christianity and Christians be defined by what we observe about Trump following evangelicals. (kind of hard to reconcile a belief in Jesus with anger to the degree of wanting to assassinate the political opponent if she comes to power).

Lastly, maybe we can leave platitudes and cynicism outside in this exchange? $10 does not buy salvation, in fact no money in the world does. If some feel better after tithing may I suggest they do it for the wrong reasons? Tithes and offerings are sacrifices, hopefully coming from a joyful heart to acknowledge that we are merely stewards of the resources, given to us, rather than owners.

Sounds like you had some very bad experience in church or with Christians. May I suggest that when discussing or debating or even making up one's mind on something so life impacting that it often requires going to the source and working through the information at source rather than deriving it from "middle men" in often altered form? Have you read the bible in its entirety?

Well stated.

 

[stu]

A few points in reply if I may:

* why would you give up personal integrity? Is it immoral to believe in God and accept the gift of salvation? What makes it immoral? Or what makes it dishonest? Cause those exactly define integrity.

* your point on human reasoning only applies if you assume humans are all knowing and all understanding, which is clearly far from even remotely the case. Heck, we understand at most a tiny fraction of the human brain, we have a lot of wild theories about the creation of this earth but zero proof. That aside the point that believing in matter, colliding to create life forms and knowing nothing where that matter actually came from, is probably the most ridiculous theory of them all, more preposterous than believing in any sort of creator. My point is that you applying "human reasoning" here gets you very quickly on a slippery path.

* I do not count fear as reason for my decision to believe. I am not believing because I otherwise would end up separated from God into eternity. Not sure about others, though. Superstition? Sure, a lot of it. Why is that wrong, when you push your buy and sell buttons on your trading front app as function of how your back aches. Are you saying there does not exist anything supernatural in this world? Its all made up?

* Some may have faith out of selfish motivations, some Japanese even look to be completely covered by believing in 5 faiths altogether...you know..."just to be safe". But you should not define faith based on what you observe in some individuals. Neither should Christianity and Christians be defined by what we observe about Trump following evangelicals. (kind of hard to reconcile a belief in Jesus with anger to the degree of wanting to assassinate the political opponent if she comes to power).

Lastly, maybe we can leave platitudes and cynicism outside in this exchange? $10 does not buy salvation, in fact no money in the world does. If some feel better after tithing may I suggest they do it for the wrong reasons? Tithes and offerings are sacrifices, hopefully coming from a joyful heart to acknowledge that we are merely stewards of the resources, given to us, rather than owners.

Sounds like you had some very bad experience in church or with Christians. May I suggest that when discussing or debating or even making up one's mind on something so life impacting that it often requires going to the source and working through the information at source rather than deriving it from "middle men" in often altered form? Have you read the bible in its entirety?

The way this salvation idea is described, really does not reasonably or rationally justify it to be anything like a gift.
Emanating from no actual thing other than a devious machination within an ancient tale, you have a completely indistinct, implausible and highly questionable offer being made. One that's found two a penny in almost any folklore or fairytale.

This so called gift comes along with a giant caveat that you do something first. And that something is, as I say, to give up the reasoning that normally delivers the senses from falling for such obvious deception. That is where I am saying personal integrity is clearly a cost.

Immoral to push salvation as a real thing - Certainly.
Dishonest, to call salvation a gift when a forfeit is required in advance, and for life - Definitely.
And I would say examples of how the lack of human integrity generally takes hold.

Finally, can we leave the sanctimonious references to church / Christians to one side in this exchange?
With respect, your other points from - faith - to not knowing everything - to the Japanese! - are a digression and disjointed anyway. They do not directly address the specific issue we were discussing.

 

[Zzzz1]

Salvation is often considered a gift because it does not require nor even allow us to work out our own salvation. It was offered by someone who did not have to offer it.

But I agree with you to some extent that nothing is a real gift in a way that it requires a certain amount of faith and trust by he recipient in the gift giver. Now, if you discount salvation as gift because it would necessitate that you understand and appreciate the depth and value of the gift then I am afraid you are caught in your self made semantic prison.

Whatever you call salvation, gift or not, it's there, it's offered to you as well as to anyone else, and you yourself choose whether you accept it and respond to it or not. Yes it would require a belief in God, his son, and his spirit. If that is a too high a cost to pay I wonder how your head must be spinning when you contemplate each morning whether it is worth getting your feet on the ground, stand up from bed, to do what you do.

The way this salvation idea is described, really does not reasonably or rationally justify it to be anything like a gift.
Emanating from no actual thing other than a devious machination within an ancient tale, you have a completely indistinct, implausible and highly questionable offer being made. One that's found two a penny in almost any folklore or fairytale.

This so called gift comes along with a giant caveat that you do something first. And that something is, as I say, to give up the reasoning that normally delivers the senses from falling for such obvious deception. That is where I am saying personal integrity is clearly a cost.

Immoral to push salvation as a real thing - Certainly.
Dishonest, to call salvation a gift when a forfeit is required in advance, and for life - Definitely.
And I would say examples of how the lack of human integrity generally takes hold.

Finally, can we leave the sanctimonious references to church / Christians to one side in this exchange?
With respect, your other points from - faith - to not knowing everything - to the Japanese! - are a digression and disjointed anyway. They do not directly address the specific issue we were discussing.

 

[smallStops]

Quiet difficult normally to understand the concepts of salvation, if one is not fully aware of being a sinner,
and what the ramifications of these are.

 

[stu]

You describe a false gift that isn't really a gift at all, offered by someone who isn't a someone, to do with something that's no more than an ethereal promise for after you're dead.
It is my argument that seriously believing in those sort of delirious ideas, is the sort of thing that chips away at a persons integrity.

So worth getting up in the morning to realize it is a wonderful sufficiency to see how beautiful the garden is without having to believe there is a Fairy at the bottom of it.

Salvation is often considered a gift because it does not require nor even allow us to work out our own salvation. It was offered by someone who did not have to offer it.

But I agree with you to some extent that nothing is a real gift in a way that it requires a certain amount of faith and trust by he recipient in the gift giver. Now, if you discount salvation as gift because it would necessitate that you understand and appreciate the depth and value of the gift then I am afraid you are caught in your self made semantic prison.

Whatever you call salvation, gift or not, it's there, it's offered to you as well as to anyone else, and you yourself choose whether you accept it and respond to it or not. Yes it would require a belief in God, his son, and his spirit. If that is a too high a cost to pay I wonder how your head must be spinning when you contemplate each morning whether it is worth getting your feet on the ground, stand up from bed, to do what you do.

 

[Zzzz1]

Interesting, I have exactly the opposite experience. Many of the nihilists and atheists I met seemed quite confused about questions on life and it was reflected in their being restless and tendency to somehow medicate their restlessness and state of emptiness.

On the other hand find me a truly content person, someone who respects and loves others, even when he is wronged, someone who shows a genuine love and care for those around him, someone who does not value money highly, but someone who can be happy and responsible with whatever he is given, someone who does not credit himself for echievements, and you found with high probability a truely devoted Christian.

The few people with true and strong integrity I came across in life are without almost any exception Christians.

I am not looking to win any arguments hence I am just sharing from my own observations in life.

It is my argument that seriously believing in those sort of delirious ideas, is the sort of thing that chips away at a persons integrity.

.

 

[stu]

Thing is, there are no moral actions you can perform that are not already in the province of the non-religious.

Though they are often claimed to be - happiness, fulfillment and self worth - are not the sole property of the religious.

But you're right. This wasn't about winning, it was about the making of a particular religious statement that cannot be true and so diminishes the integrity of those whenever they make it.

And if the only people you have come across in life with true and strong integrity - are few and Christian - I respectfully suggest you get out more.

someone who respects and loves others, even when he is wronged, someone who shows a genuine love and care for those around him,

The few people with true and strong integrity I came across in life are without almost any exception Christians.

I am not looking to win any arguments hence I am just sharing from my own observations in life.

 

[Zzzz1]

As Christian it is not about performance nor self worth. It is sad you could not rid yourself of semantics until the very end. In this context, when people say it is a "free" gift then it refers to the fact that you have to do nothing to receive it, what you do with it is of course your choice. Like when you get a house as gift, you don't have to pay for it to receive itand what you subsequently do is your choice. By most everyone's standards and usage of the language this is considered free. You may have to pay something later in property taxes if you choose to keep it but that does not make the gift non free.

I am happy to follow your recommendation to get out more, though I am slowly getting tired to move countries with the family, career related. Have been around quite a bit and made lots of friends and acquaintances everywhere though I guess one can always put in more effort to keep one's eyes open. May I respectfully suggest to you on the other hand to potentially read through the Bible yourself, so that you may see for yourself rather than taking in biased views and thoughts from others or being influenced by your environment. I assume from your comments do far, and please correct me if my assumption is wrong, that you have not read the Bible yet.

Thank you for the civil exchange of thoughts.

Thing is, there are no moral actions you can perform that are not already in the province of the non-religious.

Though they are often claimed to be - happiness, fulfillment and self worth - are not the sole property of the religious.

But you're right. This wasn't about winning, it was about the making of a particular religious statement that cannot be true and so diminishes the integrity of those whenever they make it.

And if the only people you have come across in life with true and strong integrity - are few and Christian - I respectfully suggest you get out more.

 

[stu]

It's not about semantics and I think it wrong to pass the issue off that way. Non-equivalent comparisons to gifts of houses or water in the desert, do not reflect the obvious shortcomings in the veracity of bible promises.

When you get a house as a gift you get a house. Being offered so called salvation is an invitation to do something and keep doing it. That is a price to be paid simply to blindly accept a dubious promise for when you no longer live. That really is not a gift.

Blindly accepting flaky religious submissions under faith is a person's prerogative. Although that in itself might raise a question of integrity, superstition has been around a lot longer than religion.
But to claim them as true and factual, to change meaning in order to try and give veracity to baseless claims , to say something is what it isn't - is plain wrong, and in that way I suggest, religious belief overall diminishes human spirit.

I wish you well and thank you too for the exchange.

As Christian it is not about performance nor self worth. It is sad you could not rid yourself of semantics until the very end. In this context, when people say it is a "free" gift then it refers to the fact that you have to do nothing to receive it, what you do with it is of course your choice. Like when you get a house as gift, you don't have to pay for it to receive itand what you subsequently do is your choice. By most everyone's standards and usage of the language this is considered free. You may have to pay something later in property taxes if you choose to keep it but that does not make the gift non free.

I am happy to follow your recommendation to get out more, though I am slowly getting tired to move countries with the family, career related. Have been around quite a bit and made lots of friends and acquaintances everywhere though I guess one can always put in more effort to keep one's eyes open. May I respectfully suggest to you on the other hand to potentially read through the Bible yourself, so that you may see for yourself rather than taking in biased views and thoughts from others or being influenced by your environment. I assume from your comments do far, and please correct me if my assumption is wrong, that you have not read the Bible yet.

Thank you for the civil exchange of thoughts.