Iranian Militay is no joke!

[Gringinho]

a_person,
why does letting go of occupied land have anything to do with negotiating lasting peace? To have lasting peace, one need to establish trust and mutually beneficial terms. Strong-arm tactics are not the best way to reach peaceful terms.

If Israel returned their occupied areas, that would be a a tremendous show of good will. What use do you guys have of those occupied areas anyways?

 

[TraderZones]

Quote from Gringinho:

a_person,
why does letting go of occupied land have anything to do with negotiating lasting peace? To have lasting peace, one need to establish trust and mutually beneficial terms. Strong-arm tactics are not the best way to reach peaceful terms.

If Israel returned their occupied areas, that would be a a tremendous show of good will. What use do you guys have of those occupied areas anyways?

Arab thinks all of Palestine is occupied lands. They want "right of return" - sort of similar to the Indians wanting all of North and South America returned and the occupiers to leave.

They don't want peace, they want Israel to disappear.

 

[a_person]

Quote from Gringinho:

why does letting go of occupied land have anything to do with negotiating lasting peace?
Ever heard of UN 242 land for peace resolution? That's land for peace, not land before peace, not land for peace negotiations, not land for hudna, not land for more Qassams, not land for more Katyushas. Did I explain the resolution well enough, it's land FOR peace.

And lest we forget Israel does not have territorial disputes with 20 out of 23 arab and with all non-arab muslim countries to begin with.

If Israel returned their occupied areas, that would be a a tremendous show of good will.
LOL, you are delusional. Gaza, withdrawal, elections of Hamas, Qassam rockets, kidnapping of Jilad Shalit. Does anything ring a bell?

To have lasting peace, one need to establish trust and mutually beneficial terms.
Good, Israel offered a state to Arafat in 2000, Israel withdrew from Gaza in 2005. It's about time for your arab friends to show some good will.

 

[destroyer]

Quote from a_person:
Europeans look silly to who, the US? Iraq turned out well, didn't it?
Europeans look silly to anyone who took their pathetic attempts to negotiate with Iran seriously, Europeans look silly to anyone who thought that a carrot can work without a stick, Europeans look silly to anyone who thought that they knew what they were doing, Europeans look silly to anyone who thinks Europe is relevant.

This is hilarious, you're not even able to deliver your insults properly.

Quote from a_person:
Mostly Europeans look silly to themselves cause they seriously believed that they mattered, that they knew what they were doing and that utopian ideas conceived inside their self-righteous, pacifistic bubble actually work in the real world.

Is that why the American people is about to elect a President who wants to adopt our ways? Because everybody thinks we're silly? The world doesn't think we're silly, the world, including the majority of Americans are laughing at you and your beloved leaders Bush, Cheney and Rumsfeld, and of course your intellectuals Hannity and O'Reilly. Although you seem to think your way is the American way, it is not. Your not American patriots; having small testicles and being afraid of everything and everybody is not the American way. Sending 4000 young men and women to die for your own lack of balls, is just incredible. Those dead people would laugh at you too, but can't. They're dead.

By the way, Europe is not a country, it's a peninsular sub-continent. There's no one single Euro way, every country has its own policies. The next time you want to insult me, go after the Scandinavian way.

Quote from a_person:
You are absolutely right, Iraq did not turn out well. Thank you for reminding us about our mistakes but perhaps it's time for you to face yours and realize that the Europeans have egg all over their face, that their "diplomatic way" and their negotiations with Iran are a complete and utter diplomatic disaster and staggering continental disgrace in every way possible. [/B]

Israel and the US are perceived as our allies, so as long as they keep threatening Iran, no diplomacy will work - thats for sure. Nobody wants to befriend someone who talks nice to you while dominating and slapping you around. Iran is not reacting any different than any other country (with balls) in the world would.

 

[destroyer]

Quote from a_person:
why does letting go of occupied land have anything to do with negotiating lasting peace?
Ever heard of UN 242 land for peace resolution? That's land for peace, not land before peace, not land for peace negotiations, not land for hudna, not land for more Qassams, not land for more Katyushas. Did I explain the resolution well enough, it's land FOR peace.

If the only reason Israel is occupying this land is for protection, why then are they building permanent settlements there? I've asked you this question several times before, but you seem to keep dodging it. Why can't you answer this question?

Quote from a_person:
If Israel returned their occupied areas, that would be a a tremendous show of good will.
LOL, you are delusional. Gaza, withdrawal, elections of Hamas, Qassam rockets, kidnapping of Jilad Shalit. Does anything ring a bell?

When you oppress a people for decades, crushing their homes, bombarding them, arresting them, torture them, kill them, you can't expect them to play nice once you let go of the iron grip. The reaction of Gaza-Palestinians was no surprise to anyone, it was expected by everyone, including Israel. Of course they'll pretend they didn't know, it's good PR for the country to be attacked for once. When it comes to PR, Israel are true masters, they nurtured and financed Hamas to begin with and now they're cashing in for every shekel. Really world class propaganda.

Quote from a_person:
To have lasting peace, one need to establish trust and mutually beneficial terms.
Good, Israel offered a state to Arafat in 2000, Israel withdrew from Gaza in 2005. It's about time for your arab friends to show some good will. [/B]

Not true. Israel offered to create a state on 73% of the West Bank, while maintaining the majority of their permanent settlements there with a complex network of roads that splits up the Palestinian territory into a bunch of small segments. In return for this, they demanded a complete Palestinian disregard of their rights. Everybody knew it wouldn't work, everybody knew the proposed state would never be able to stand on its own and everybody knew the Palestinian leaders could never accept it. Israel just played along to shut the world up while still expanding their settlements on non-Israeli land.

 

[a_person]

Quote from destroyer:

Because everybody thinks we're silly? The world doesn't think we're silly,
I did not say everybody thinks you're silly, I said no one thinks about you at all as you are completely irrelevant. But if they stopped to think about you for a second they would realize that your 5 years of negotiations with Iran has been a complete and never-ending fuckup and that Iran made complete fools out of you and your utopian theories.

While we long acknowledged that the war in Iraq is a disaster you're still unable to recognize that your negotiating efforts are not any better. And having completely failed to achieve even minimum objectives in your negotiations you keep smugly lecturing us on how to deal with Iran and insist that we keep negotiating with them all the way till their first nuclear test.

Somehow all I hear from you is Bush, O'Reilly and Iraq. Do you seriously think that if Bush is an idiot that automatically makes you smart? I don't think life is that simple and that black and white even in Stockholm. Bush is a moron and so are you, Bush is ignorant and so are you, Bush does not have any idea what he is doing and so are you, Iraq is a disaster and so are your negotiations with Iran...

 

[a_person]

Quote from destroyer:

If the only reason Israel is occupying this land is for protection,
I did not say that, Israel occupied the land in a war it did not start but did win. Israel was willing to return it in exchange for peace according to resolution 242, the arab world's reaction was "No peace, no recognition, no negotiations". Egypt and Jordan later changed their position and got every inch of their land back together with substantial american financial aid.


why then are they building permanent settlements there?
They built "permanent" settlements in the Sinai and Gaza. As it turned out those settlements were not that permanent.

When you oppress a people for decades, crushing their homes, bombarding them, arresting them, torture them, kill them, you can't expect them to play nice once you let go of the iron grip.
Blah, blah blah, give me a break. When you start several wars, when five-seven countries invade one, when 350 million arabs want to drive 5 mln jews into the sea, when 0.2% of middle eastern land Israel occupies is 0.2% too many, when you start intifadas, murder civilians, fire rockets....and then you have your ass handed to you and whine, whine, whine, whine, whine...

The reaction of Gaza-Palestinians was no surprise to anyone
Glad you recognize that. Why don't you try to explain it to your buddy grininho who still seems to think that should Israel withdraw from territories it will be immediately embraced by their arab brothers. At least you and I both realize that unilateral withdrawals lead to intensified attacks against Israeli civilians.

Israel offered to create a state on 73% of the West Bank,
* Israeli redeployment from 95% of the West Bank and 100% of the Gaza Strip
* The creation of a Palestinian state in the areas of Israeli withdrawal
* The removal of isolated settlements and transfer of the land to Palestinian control
* Other Israeli land exchanged for West Bank settlements remaining under Israeli control
* Palestinian control over East Jerusalem, including most of the Old City
* "Religious Sovereignty" over the Temple Mount, replacing Israeli sovereignty in effect since 1967

In return Arafat had to declare the "end of conflict" and agree that no further claims on Israel could be made in the future. Despite the considerable concessions by Israel, Arafat chose not to negotiate, not to make a counter-offer but to just walk out.
http://palestinefacts.org/pf_1991to_now_campdavid_2000.php

 

[a_person]

But hey, don't listen to me, here is what France had to say about the proposal:



Wednesday, December 27, 2000

France Backs US-Proposed Israel-Palestinian Peace Deal
France Tuesday expressed its support for the compromise deal proposed by US President Bill Clinton to Israel and Palestinians to reach a peace agreement, describing it as the best that can be worked out now.

Spokesman of the French Foreign Ministry Francois Rivasseau said that although the Clinton proposal is not perfect, there exists no "credible alternative."

"Is there a better solution which can come out for a foreseeable term? I don't think so," he said.

The spokesman called on Israel and Palestinians to take their responsibilities for their people and history.

"The European Union, for its part, is ready to do all of what is expected of it," he said.

The US proposal includes Israeli concession of sovereignty over much of East Jerusalem and the Al-Aqsa mosque to Palestinians, while Palestinians give up the right of return for Palestinian refugees and keep 95 percent of the land of the West Bank and 100 percent of the Gaza Strip
http://english.people.com.cn/english/200012/27/eng20001227_58896.html

Do you now understand how clueless and brainwashed you really are?

 

[Gringinho]

a_person,
a proposal made referred in december 2000 ...

Please, remind me who got in office as US president in january 2001?

 

[a_person]

Quote from Gringinho:

a proposal made referred in december 2000 ... Please, remind me who got in office as US president in january 2001?

How does it change the fact that Arafat did not accept it and walked away from it without a counter-offer and that people like self-destructive are still spreading lies about proposals of 73% of West Bank (although I am sure he is not doing it on purpose, he is just misinformed by free media in Scandinavia).

Oh btw, how about the examples of "aggressive rhetoric from Israel" that you were talking about earlier (other than their response to Iranian threats after 4 years of silence of course)? Did you make it up?