CNN: Why single payer health care is a terrible option

[jem]

Insurance companies do bargain for reduced prices...
I know..

My staying the hospital for an appendectomy including the surgeon was 54,000 dollars.
I was told after my deductible I owned a few thousand.
I said does that mean that Kaiser paid the hospital and the surgeon 54,000 minus x.
They told me know. They pay best on a reduced price schedule.
I was going to argue that my deductible was therefore and arbitrary number and that I should own nothing. But, I did not want to spend the time litigating. I did want to be a plaintiff for the first time in my life and I did want my insurance cancelled.

 

[jem]

Let me rewrite that now that I have some time...

My 2 to 3 day stay at the hospital for an emergency appendectomy including the surgeon was 54,000 dollars. (according to my bill)

I was told that after the insurance paid the hospital and the doctors I owed a few thousand dollars... my deductible.

The odd thing about this whole business is that I did not owe the full deductible since some of that deductible had already been used up by my family.

Noteworthy is that instead of paying it to my insurance company I had to pay it to the hospital and the doctors.

Which made me suspicious...
So I checked... the insurance company does not pay the full bill. It pays a discount according to a schedule.

Yet somehow they figure out I owed a deductible.

Its that kind of chicanery that makes this whole process ripe for a class action suit.

Insurance companies do bargain for reduced prices...
I know..

My staying the hospital for an appendectomy including the surgeon was 54,000 dollars.
I was told after my deductible I owned a few thousand.
I said does that mean that Kaiser paid the hospital and the surgeon 54,000 minus x.
They told me know. They pay best on a reduced price schedule.
I was going to argue that my deductible was therefore and arbitrary number and that I should own nothing. But, I did not want to spend the time litigating. I did want to be a plaintiff for the first time in my life and I did want my insurance cancelled.

 

[piezoe]

The large majority of Americans and huge majority of military members & veterans believe that kneeling for the national anthem is hugely disrespectful for the sacrifices of our military who served under the U.S. flag. There is nothing illogical about this -- in fact it is very logical.

While you might view it as "misguided, reflex-like sentiments" and Tony may assert that it is "disgraceful to use our military as pawns for white nationalist causes" (which is an absolutely absurd statement) -- your attempt to state that these are "ridiculous attempts to link kneeling football players to disrespect for military personnel" flies in face of reasonable perspective.

You are talking in circles: The majority of service men and women think that protesting football players are being disrespectful of them, therefore they are being disrespectful. I disagree with you. And I say this kind of circular reasoning is wrong. And I have made another point as well. What these football players are doing is important. I hope they persist.

 

[piezoe]

Let me rewrite that now that I have some time...

My 2 to 3 day stay at the hospital for an emergency appendectomy including the surgeon was 54,000 dollars. (according to my bill)

I was told that after the insurance paid the hospital and the doctors I owed a few thousand dollars... my deductible.

The odd thing about this whole business is that I did not owe the full deductible since some of that deductible had already been used up by my family.

Noteworthy is that instead of paying it to my insurance company I had to pay it to the hospital and the doctors.

Which made me suspicious...
So I checked... the insurance company does not pay the full bill. It pays a discount according to a schedule.

Yet somehow they figure out I owed a deductible.

Its that kind of chicanery that makes this whole process ripe for a class action suit.

You live in California? This is a practice that the Blues were successfully sued for by the AGs in many States. (Illinois was one) But I don't know that the settlement forbade them from doing the same thing again. What they do is tell you that your bill was the undiscounted amount and base their co-pay or deductible on that amount, when in fact they have negotiated huge discounts with the provider that they don't reveal to you. It's a fraudulent practice, but it is going to continue until we repeal McCarran Ferguson and bring the insurance companies under Dept. of Commerce Regs. You can sue however. That is the only way you can get accurate information regarding what the insurance companies actually paid. You have to have a court order and get the information via the discovery process.
I've posted on this previously.

 

[gwb-trading]

You are talking in circles: The majority of service men and women think that protesting football players are being disrespectful of them, therefore they are being disrespectful. I disagree with you. And I say this kind of circular reasoning is wrong. And I have made another point as well. What these football players are doing is important. I hope they persist.

It is not only the majority of the service men and women who think what the football players are doing is disrespectful, it is over 58% of Americans.

These football players should find a better way to protest that does not offend the majority of their audience who effectively pay their salaries via buying tickets and watching on TV.

On top of this any message the players are trying to convey is simply lost in the endless controversy over kneeling for the national anthem. This has become a fight over the players disrespect rather than being a discussion about racism or any other topic.

 

[TreeFrogTrader]

So I checked... the insurance company does not pay the full bill. It pays a discount according to a schedule.

Yup. That's how these so-called "medical discount plans" versus medical insurance work. Some of them are a scam because they are sold to consumers as though they are insurance and they are not, but for a person who does not have insurance and is paying out of pocket but wants to get a reduced rate- but does not expect full coverage- then they can have value. The way these plans work- the ones that are not scams- is that they simply get the same negotiated rate for services and pharmaceuticals and medical devices that insurance companies get and then pass that to the consumer for a monthly fee which needs to be worth it for the savings to retain enrollees.

But yeh, the bill that you get and what it says the insurance company paid is a complete crock. It may say that the hospital bill was 40,000 or something which is the price you would have to pay out of your pocket but the insurance company is going to pay them much less per their frequent flyer negotiated rate. But if the patient can't pay anything and they had to provide emergency services, they will write the whole thing off at the full rate, not the rate they would have given the insurance companies. It's a wicked game.


-Tree

 

[piezoe]

Yup. That's how these so-called "medical discount plans" versus medical insurance work. Some of them are a scam because they are sold to consumers as though they are insurance and they are not, but for a person who does not have insurance and is paying out of pocket but wants to get a reduced rate- but does not expect full coverage- then they can have value. The way these plans work- the ones that are not scams- is that they simply get the same negotiated rate for services and pharmaceuticals and medical devices that insurance companies get and then pass that to the consumer for a monthly fee which needs to be worth it for the savings to retain enrollees.

But yeh, the bill that you get and what it says the insurance company paid is a complete crock. It may say that the hospital bill was 40,000 or something which is the price you would have to pay out of your pocket but the insurance company is going to pay them much less per their frequent flyer negotiated rate. But if the patient can't pay anything and they had to provide emergency services, they will write the whole thing off at the full rate, not the rate they would have given the insurance companies. It's a wicked game.


-Tree

You were quoting jem, not me. I don't know how you got my name associated with jem's post. But it doesn't matter. You need to respond to jem.

 

[Max E.]

I agree with Tony Stark who said it was disgraceful to use our military as pawns for white nationalist causes. That's what seems to be going on here in these ridiculous attempts to link kneeling football players to disrespect for military personnel.

Man i dont know what happened to you, under Obama you seemed to have well thought out debates where you were atleast willing to put up a legitimate argument, now in the age of Trump, you have bought into this nonsense that every single issue is about race.

There is almost no normal person in society these days who looks at these issues as a purely race issue, the majority of people are not on your side. The vast majority of America are not on your side, this is one of the few issues you can actually get to 65% on these days.

So apparently, in your mind, the people who think you shouldnt shit on the flag to protest, are all racists.

Thats the narrative the far left is selling, everyone who isnt on the side of the kneelers is a racist. You got to open your eyes man, you are on the wrong side of history on this one.

And the funny thing is that Trump will be gone in 2020 there is no doubt in my mind about it..... The only way he will survive is if you keep pushing this bullshit narrative that everyone who disagrees with you is racist.

Identity politics has become the most toxic shit in decades, and thats the only argument it seems like your side has left. Keep pushing it if you want to lose, there is only so many times you can call someone a white supremacist before they tune you out and switch sides.

Through identity politics, the far left has created a situation that is so toxic that there is no difference between calling someone the "N" word, and calling someone a white supremacist....... in fact i could easily make the argument that calling someone a white supremacist is far worse in modern society.

If you call someone the "N" word, there will literally be a parade of people willing to celebrate your diversity, and apologize for society...... If you call someone a white supremacist there is mainstream newspapers literally asking if it is ok to beat the shit out of you........

While no one except a tiny minority of people think its ok to call someone the "N" word, the vast majority of the left think its acceptable to not only lable their political opponents "White supremacists" but the mainstream left wing media also says its ok to beat the shit out of someone they deem to be "White Supremacists"

Tell me how the modern democratic party, is any different than the democratic party who fought for slavery, jim crow, and the k.k.k.

The democratic platform has always been about creating racial division, the only difference between now, and then is the race they choose to target.

 

[TreeFrogTrader]

You were quoting jem, not me. I don't know how you got my name associated with jem's post. But it doesn't matter. You need to respond to jem.

Sorry. I stand erect before you in a state of apology.

 

[piezoe]

...the mainstream left wing media also says its ok to beat the shit out of someone they deem to be "White Supremacists"

I'm not seen evidence for this statement , so I wouldn't be qualified to comment further on this or several of your other, what seem to me to be, rather wild and unfounded statements. The President has made racist statements. And some consider him a racist. I myself am convinced from his rhetoric and past actions that he isn't the kind of leader our nation needs. Worse yet, He acts like a buffoon and is an embarrassment to the nation. To me he seems devoid of any guiding principles, so I personally couldn't characterize his politics as left, right or center. All we can say with certainty is that he is a liar devoid of ethical or moral guideposts. He has personally encouraged violence at some of his political rallies. These are facts you can look up if you are so inclined.

As I have stated, I am not certain precisely what it is that the football players are currently protesting. The Kaepernick event followed the trouble in Ferguson, didn't it? I assume it was related to that. I am assuming now that current events are also related to similar problems created by police abuse and/or the Alt Right movement being promoted by one of the President's associates. It is possible that they are also protesting the President's racist behavior. I hope so anyway.

The point I have made over and over, and I'll make it again for you. Those young men are protesting something that, so far as I can tell, has nothing to do with disrespect for those in our military.

Respect has to be earned. If you're doing something that causes people to disrespect you, you had better take notice and change your ways, or there will be trouble for you and your kind. Those young men, whatever it is they are protesting, are doing someone, or some group of people, a favor by putting them on notice. I hope the people or person their protests are directed at will pay attention and respond in a productive way. I hope you are not one of those who needs to take note.

Because I find the Democrat's politics generally less distasteful than the Republican's I under stand that you and others seem to assume I am some sort of Democrat stalwart. I'm not. I'm a Libertarian, but I have very little in common with those in these forums who are calling themselves Libertarians but actually lean more toward what Chomsky has termed "anarcho-capitalists". I think others have sometimes referred to these radicals as "neolibertarians".

Naturally, as a Libertarian, I am strongly supportive of the players right to peacefully protest, whatever it is they are protesting. This is a philosophy shared with traditional Republicans in the Russell Kirk sense.* If you find someone posting here suggesting the players should be fired or prevented from protesting, or suggesting they are being disrespectful of the Anthem , the flag or our Military, then you will know that that person is at least not a Libertarian, despite what they may claim. The right to protest peacefully lies at the heart of true Libertarian philosophy and principles.
___________________
*You will also find that many who identify with the Modern Republican Party, the Tea Part for example, share little with traditional Republican philosophy as best described by Kirk. (see Russell Kirk, "The Conservative Mind") Many, but by no means all, "Republicans" today share far more with Fascism than with traditional Conservative philosophy.