Would you collaborate with a programmer if it meant sharing your system/research?

[virtusa]

I have very basic knowledge of programming. I had a lot of problems with the correct syntax and also with the specific NT8 instructions.
If I wanted to program an indicator that would create 1 line on a chart, I took a free indicator from the NT8 library.
A NT8 specialist checked the code and after that I added the code that created the line with my calculations. Just adding the mathematical part was easy, and my NT8 programmer never saw that code.

 

[savoir]

Would it be accurate to say that you would not be contemplating a collaboration if you’ve made a lot of money trading your model as is? You could just hire people to make the tweaks you want and continue trading.

Are you maybe overvaluing your model because of the personal cost to you to get to this point? Look at the results of your trading using this model to estimate its value to anyone else. If the results are not good, maybe you should consider becoming a vendor and selling it. Outside of that, the model isn’t worth much regardless of the work and resources you’ve put into it.

Usually people skilled in their profession do not work for free. It would be interesting to know the programmer’s perspective and what he expects to get out of such an arrangement. He may be operating under the delusion he will make money through trading the model he learns from you. Or it could simply be that his services are not in demand. Knowing what I know about trading and traders, I would not offer even a discount to take on such a project. Thus, it sounds like a great deal if the person is an able programmer.

About contracts, they are only as good as your ability to enforce them. Upon the other party’s breach you would need to show damages. There is no contract that can force the other party to answer your phone calls and continue to work for free. That is called slavery and such contracts are unenforceable under contract law.

 

[virtusa]

"Point is - just not sure how much value such contracts have." If you don't back-up your own NDA I certainly would not blame the system. Whoever wrote your NDA should have included a fees and damages clause.

Good luck going to court and pay huge fees for lawyers and fight years to get a good outcome. And even if the court judges in your favor, trying to get that money. On top of that your code is known by them and can still be used without any problem if they do it in a smart way.
A NDA is worthless and your codes is stolen.
Are you ready to spend a few hundred K on laywers just to start?

 

[ajacobson]

The well-written NDA covers that. Filing fees are minimal, but if you are not gonna enforce the terms you might as well give your stuff away. We've only filed on one it never went to court. Making someone agree to an NDA and don't enforce it is just as good as not executing one.

 

[FreeGoldRush]

The NDA is important but it's also important to pick partners and not just hired help. If you both have your interests aligned then there will be fewer surprises. Ideally you want a programmer that understands your strategy and has quantitative trading experience. You then work together and you both benefit.

 

[NoahA]

I don't see why that's significant to what's being discussed here, so it's not a surprise to me that nobody asked that.



For what purpose? I don't see why I would want to share any more details...

I already explained in great detail to this programmer / aspiring trader what he can expect and have given him some details and a few demonstrations of how it all works. I've explained to him that at worst he will have very detailed statistics and a new framework for analyzing/understanding how the market works.

The benefit for me is that potentially we can create something even better together as opposed to simply hiring a programmer to do work for me without any deeper knowledge of what he's doing.

In addition to giving away my secret sauce I'm a bit concerned he'll simply leave me in the dust as soon as he gets what he needs, though. I will definitely draft up a contract before beginning, but even then I'm worried there'll be issues and that one day he may decide to not pick up the phone or stop responding...

I guess I see a huge disconnect in what you're saying. On the one hand, you're saying that its not important what type of results your system is capable of generating, but on the other hand, you're scared to give away the secret sauce.

If the data that the system spits out truly is like a secret sauce, then anyone should be able to use that data and start generating amazing returns right away. In this case, I would of course be cautious, and your profit factor from the trades generated would be very high. But if the data simply generated detailed stats and a framework, that itself has to be analyzed and trade decisions have to be made, which itself would need a set of rules, then I don't see how the stats generation is a secret sauce. In this case, I would hurry up the system because you are probably the only one who can take advantage of it. If you learn to code and it takes 6 months, that is 6 months of lost profit potential.

Here is an analogy. Suppose you create a system for men to teach them how to improve themselves to help them get laid. Anyone who goes through the program and makes the changes, ie. hits the gym, buys new clothes, etc., will very likely find themselves being more attractive to women and their chances of success will increase tremendously. But suppose the program is simply the rental of a fast car, VIP status at a club, a dedicated entourage and a penthouse condo. Chances are, assuming this new identity, a guy can probably get laid that very same night. Going with the second option is like giving someone the secret sauce they can use right away. But going with the first option will require work from the customer and input of time. It won't be an automatic result.

Now clearly, giving away the first system will probably not affect anyone else from doing the same thing, it won't really dilute the edge too much, and it probably won't negatively impact the chances of the creator getting laid. But if you give away your fast car, condo and VIP access to a club, you may very well feel a bit cheated because this secret sauce was actually something tangible.

 

[cruisecontrol]

Hello all.

Long story short I have a custom trading system/program written in C# which was built to me by a professional firm over 10 years ago by now. Since the first iteration I've had subsequent upgrades up until the point where I'm mostly satisfied as it covers most bases. This is not an automated trading system, but what I call a statistical model.

The main problem at the moment with the software is that the program outgrew its original specifications (which was rather simple), such that particularly updating of data isn't as smooth as it should be considering that I use it intraday as well. Also, I've had to add some of my own calculations later on in Excel. However, it does work, although not optimally.

I wasn't really planning on doing anything more at the moment, but have now been approached by a programmer who's very eager to collaborate with me. Roughly, the deal will be that he re-writes my current model/system taking care of all present issues and adds a few new features. In return, I pretty much give him everything which I spent so many years developing and researching.

I have two concerns:

1) How can I be certain that this guy doesn't leave me in the dust as soon as I've divulged the current source code/calculations?

I know it's possible to create contracts, but I'm still a bit worried here.

2) Simply the act of sharing everything I accumulated is something that makes me conflicted. I spent a great deal of time, trial and error to deveop what I have. And then I'm simply going to hand it out to some stranger?

The obvious benefit to me is that I may be abe to finally complete my system and have at hand a much better and more efficient program without investing any money.

Additionally, there's the possible benefit of developing something even better together. If we continue working together he can quickly implement new ideas for testing, etc.

Any thoughts?

If you have the ability to learn to code then that is always the best solution even if it takes a few months or a year.

If you have no choice but to hire someone, then just hire a code monkey who has no apparent interest in trading.

Giving the secret sauce to someone who approached you? Hell no. Your incentives are not aligned with this person and you have a high chance of getting screwed over. You already sense this and that is why you started this thread. Contracts won't really help you that much, if you need to try to enforce one then you already lost. Even if it works out, it sounds like the value being exchanged is not equivalent. A few weeks of coding work is worth thousands, but your system may be worth millions.

The only exception to this would be if you know the person really well and you trust yourself to be a good judge of character. If you're willing to go into business together 50/50 with them then your incentives will be much better aligned. This has a much better chance of working out over the medium term (although I will note it can still fail and also has a chance of ruining your friendship)

 

[Laissez Faire]

Usually people skilled in their profession do not work for free. It would be interesting to know the programmer’s perspective and what he expects to get out of such an arrangement. He may be operating under the delusion he will make money through trading the model he learns from you. Or it could simply be that his services are not in demand. Knowing what I know about trading and traders, I would not offer even a discount to take on such a project. Thus, it sounds like a great deal if the person is an able programmer.

About contracts, they are only as good as your ability to enforce them. Upon the other party’s breach you would need to show damages. There is no contract that can force the other party to answer your phone calls and continue to work for free. That is called slavery and such contracts are unenforceable under contract law.

Where did you get the idea that he will be working for free? Clearly there's an exchange of value here and the programmer knows his end of the bargain.

The programmer is employed and will be doing this mostly on his free time, so I'll say it's a very low risk investment for him with a potentially very high reward and at worst a good learning experience. There's no monetary risk for him beyond the time invested. I've already shown him enough that he's told me that even if we don't move forward with this I changed his perspective on how to perceive the markets and that he knows enough to start his own research. And that's from someone who's not new to the markets. So, clearly he perceives it to be of value.

Thanks for the support, savoir. Really appreciate it.

 

[Laissez Faire]

I guess I see a huge disconnect in what you're saying. On the one hand, you're saying that its not important what type of results your system is capable of generating, but on the other hand, you're scared to give away the secret sauce.

Where did I say that?

If you yourself spent 10 + years of research and built something unique on your own I think you would be cautious, too.

If the data that the system spits out truly is like a secret sauce, then anyone should be able to use that data and start generating amazing returns right away.

Here is an analogy.

It's a really dumb analogy, Noah. About as dumb as the rest of your assumptions.

My system or secret sauce wasn't really the subject of this discussion.

 

[themickey]

If a stranger and coder is keen on your idea then I wouldn't use them.
You've invested too much time to hand this willy nilly to someone who could use it.
Get someone to teach you to code, you are in for pain if you can't code because you are always dependent on them.
Believe me, it takes months upon months to fine tune a largish algo.