US-Israeli Friendship

Quote from Copernicus:

would u care to support it ?

where is the visible benefit?
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Politically, militarily, economically, socially, morally, and ethically we benefit.

If you don't think so, fine. Run for office and change American policy. It is clear you don't believe what I believe. It is also very likely my opinions are biased because I have immediate family involved in American/Israeli relations work, and also family living in Israel.

The State of Israel had to earn it's existence without any help at all. In 1948, the life expectancy of Israel was clearly only a matter of days (if not hours). Against all odds, they survived. Now we (the US) have pledged our allegiance to this strategically important (if the ethical and moral issue means nothing to you, which seems to be the case) ally.

Do you yourself have any relatives? A brother or sister? Parents? If so, do you stand by them and count on them to stand by you when it is necessary? As a nation, we are "relatives" with Israel. How much simpler can I make it? When you were a young child, you misbehaved. Yet your mother and father still stood by your side. Blood is thick. Right or wrong. When you were wrong, you were chided. But not disowned.

Israel has done more than it's fair share of "wrong". It is hard to be on constant "good behavior" when your back is always to the wall. When you are constantly being threatened with death (which IS official policy of the Arab world with the tenuous exception of Egypt).

There are hundreds of millions of words you can read explaining the finer points of our economic and other inter-dependencies with Israel. Read up.

Again in overly simple terms.....other than oil, what benefits do we get from the Arab nations that seek to destroy Israel? Measure the contributions of Arab society to our own. Then look at what Israel has contributed in purely practical terms to the US. In computer technology and bio-technology and pharmaceuticals alone we have "benefited" more each year (probably each day) from Israel than we have from all the Arab nations combined in all the years combined since the birth of our country. Is that a practical enough answer? (as simple and as incomplete as it is?).

Peace,
RS
 
Are you suggesting all of those benefits would not have happened if those people you credit lived in America, and not in the state of Israel?

You seem to suggest that it was not their individual doing, but he state of Israel's doing.

Quote from Error 404:

Politically, militarily, economically, socially, morally, and ethically we benefit.

If you don't think so, fine. Run for office and change American policy. It is clear you don't believe what I believe. It is also very likely my opinions are biased because I have immediate family involved in American/Israeli relations work, and also family living in Israel.

The State of Israel had to earn it's existence without any help at all. In 1948, the life expectancy of Israel was clearly only a matter of days (if not hours). Against all odds, they survived. Now we (the US) have pledged our allegiance to this strategically important (if the ethical and moral issue means nothing to you, which seems to be the case) ally.

Do you yourself have any relatives? A brother or sister? Parents? If so, do you stand by them and count on them to stand by you when it is necessary? As a nation, we are "relatives" with Israel. How much simpler can I make it? When you were a young child, you misbehaved. Yet your mother and father still stood by your side. Blood is thick. Right or wrong. When you were wrong, you were chided. But not disowned.

Israel has done more than it's fair share of "wrong". It is hard to be on constant "good behavior" when your back is always to the wall. When you are constantly being threatened with death (which IS official policy of the Arab world with the tenuous exception of Egypt).

There are hundreds of millions of words you can read explaining the finer points of our economic and other inter-dependencies with Israel. Read up.

Again in overly simple terms.....other than oil, what benefits do we get from the Arab nations that seek to destroy Israel? Measure the contributions of Arab society to our own. Then look at what Israel has contributed in purely practical terms to the US. In computer technology and bio-technology and pharmaceuticals alone we have "benefited" more each year (probably each day) from Israel than we have from all the Arab nations combined in all the years combined since the birth of our country. Is that a practical enough answer? (as simple and as incomplete as it is?).

Peace,
RS
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Quote from ArchAngel:

Sure we do - we get the privilege of pissing away billions of taxpayer dollars every year that goes in large part to artificially boosting Israel's economy and industrial complex.

The problem with politicians (many of whom receive huge contributions from jewish lobbies in the US) is that they think (or have been told to think) that not backing everything Israel does is "pulling support".

The US would have a better chance of at least looking like a reputable player in the hot zone if we maintained a consistent and balanced position of trying to insure what's best for all concerned - not just whatever Israel wants to do. Hard to make the argument to arab factions that we're trying to help work for peace in the region when we exclusively support Israel on every issue, no matter how unreasonable.

It's definitely appropriate to help insure Israel's security, but anyone arguing that everything Israel does is justified or right is simply out of their mind.

It's definitely a tough nut - but it's also hard to just accept that every Israeli action is justified when they've maintained military lockdown (and introduced and expanded settlements) for over 40 years on territory and inhabitants that isn't within their official borders.

As a start, when appropriate, the US should join with others in the UN to call Israel to the mat when they step out of line - instead of letting them always hide behind our veto.
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excellent statement, I applaud it
 
Quote from Error 404:

Politically, militarily, economically, socially, morally, and ethically we benefit.

If you don't think so, fine. Run for office and change American policy. It is clear you don't believe what I believe. It is also very likely my opinions are biased because I have immediate family involved in American/Israeli relations work, and also family living in Israel.

The State of Israel had to earn it's existence without any help at all. In 1948, the life expectancy of Israel was clearly only a matter of days (if not hours). Against all odds, they survived. Now we (the US) have pledged our allegiance to this strategically important (if the ethical and moral issue means nothing to you, which seems to be the case) ally.

Do you yourself have any relatives? A brother or sister? Parents? If so, do you stand by them and count on them to stand by you when it is necessary? As a nation, we are "relatives" with Israel. How much simpler can I make it? When you were a young child, you misbehaved. Yet your mother and father still stood by your side. Blood is thick. Right or wrong. When you were wrong, you were chided. But not disowned.

Israel has done more than it's fair share of "wrong". It is hard to be on constant "good behavior" when your back is always to the wall. When you are constantly being threatened with death (which IS official policy of the Arab world with the tenuous exception of Egypt).

There are hundreds of millions of words you can read explaining the finer points of our economic and other inter-dependencies with Israel. Read up.

Again in overly simple terms.....other than oil, what benefits do we get from the Arab nations that seek to destroy Israel? Measure the contributions of Arab society to our own. Then look at what Israel has contributed in purely practical terms to the US. In computer technology and bio-technology and pharmaceuticals alone we have "benefited" more each year (probably each day) from Israel than we have from all the Arab nations combined in all the years combined since the birth of our country. Is that a practical enough answer? (as simple and as incomplete as it is?).

Peace,
RS
More...

I do not question Israel's right to exist. I am happy they finally have a "home" after centuries. I also have a lot of respect for the Jewish community, the one in America not Israel! Israel seems not to give a f... what everybody thinks, they do as they please.

I only wish American politics was more neutral. We dont gain anything by going against the world and blindly suppporting Israel.
 
Quote from Copernicus:

I do not question Israel's right to exist. I am happy they finally have a "home" after centuries. I also have a lot of respect for the Jewish community, the one in America not Israel! Israel seems not to give a f... what everybody thinks, they do as they please.

I only wish American politics was more neutral. We dont gain anything by going against the world and blindly suppporting Israel.
More...

What you call "doing as they please" is to simply try to exist. That is what they are fighting for, and they are one of, if not the most, vulnerable country to terrorism. They have been more restrained than any other country would have under their circumstances.
 
Quote from I Missed Boat:

What you call "doing as they please" is to simply try to exist. That is what they are fighting for, and they are one of, if not the most, vulnerable country to terrorism. They have been more restrained than any other country would have under their circumstances.
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building new settlements, fences, and assasinating thats trying to exist? i don't think so, u might have a different opinion.
 
Quote from Copernicus:

building new settlements, fences, and assasinating thats trying to exist? i don't think so, u might have a different opinion.
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Yes, as a matter of fact. Building fences and assasinating terrorists IS trying to exist. As far as the settlements, they offered to give them up for peace, and still would do so. However, in the meantime the settlements do help create a better buffer zone.
 
Quote from ARogueTrader:

Are you suggesting all of those benefits would not have happened if those people you credit lived in America, and not in the state of Israel?

You seem to suggest that it was not their individual doing, but he state of Israel's doing.
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ART, I don't understand what you are getting at. Do you mean to imply in your question that Israel is superfluous?

Going back to the suggestion of the "relocation" of the Israelis to lower Manhatten (I know it was not meant to be taken literally..but still)... Aside from the religious and historical ties of the people to the land, don't forget; Israelis are NOT Americans.

Some make it sound as if Israel is a "home away from home" for American Jews. This is far from the case. Very far.

As to your "state" vs. "individuals" statement, I thought a country WAS it's people. No?

The Sharon administration is not permanent. Less so than the Bush (or any American) administration. A vote of no confidence can change Israel's leadership virtually over night. (unlike our system). So it is senseless to seperate the people from the state.

When Sharon replaced Netanyahu, I really thought it would lead to the demise of Israel. But now, in hindsight, I understand that as an American I just did not have the sense of what was motivating the move. I could not empathise at all at the time with the Israeli people to see why they would want Sharon.

Still, from a perspective of an American, it seems that things have gotten worse, not better (standard of living in Israel) since Sharon took power. But the people have spoken. Maybe they have a more pragmatic view of what needs to be done and when. They certainly are not keeping the guy in power for the "now". Tourism, which was Israel's biggest industry ceases to exist presently.

We as Americans have been asked by our government to make sacrifices for the long term betterment of our nations security. (This is NOT without precedence). I can only believe that right now the Israeli people have decided to make sacrifices for the long term benefits as they believe them to be.

I do know that the Israeli people want peace. I strongly believe, (with some first hand exposure), that the majority of Arabs living in the West Bank and Gaza want peace with Israel. It is truly a situation in which the minority are fucking things up for the majority.

I have mentioned more than once before....Israel is the only place in the Middle East where female Muslims are permitted to vote. It is really NOT the "Palestinian" people that are keeping the conflict going. It is the governments of the surrounding Arab nations. Plus some radical fundamentalist Islamic clergy. (The backlash effect is that the Orthodox Jews have gotten to make too much policy in Israel. They are just as crazy as the Orthodox Musllms when it comes to denying the peace process).

Plus of course, the professional "freedom fighters"....it is their job on the line if peace were to come. Does anyone believe that Arafat & Co. would serve any function in a Palestinian nation at peace? A country that would try and progress in the world's economy? No, there is no interest in peace for those who would lose all they have. Those who derive their power and money from conflict.


All so sad. So wasteful and so bloody. So completely unnecessary.

Peace,
RS
 
Quote from Copernicus:

I do not question Israel's right to exist. I am happy they finally have a "home" after centuries. I also have a lot of respect for the Jewish community, the one in America not Israel! Israel seems not to give a f... what everybody thinks, they do as they please.

I only wish American politics was more neutral. We dont gain anything by going against the world and blindly suppporting Israel.
More...

I agree on the first part, don't really like the Israelis on a personal level. In fact, most I have met I can't stomach. However, the political question is completely different and transcends my personal feelings.

The Palestinians must come to the peace table and be willing to cut a deal, and the Israelis must help bring tem there.

Israelis can't take world opinion into consideration, since most want them all dead anyway.

Arabs are enablers of the Palestinian distortion and self defeatism. It is the great distraction for the repressive Arab regimes. Blame the West, blame the vestiges of colonialism, blame the Jews. The Arabs feed the Palestinian-Israeli conflict ideologically, philosophically religious, and economically.
 
Quote from I Missed Boat:

Yes, as a matter of fact. Building fences and assasinating terrorists IS trying to exist. As far as the settlements, they offered to give them up for peace, and still would do so. However, in the meantime the settlements do help create a better buffer zone.
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These settlements and expansion of them seem to be the biggest problem. perhaps it would be easier to negotiate without them. on the ohter hand its funny how israelis use new found russian jews as shields sending them over there.
 
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