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The Opening Orders Thread
- Thread starter Don Bright
- Start date
Watching this thread seems like the strategy is making less and less, except the black swan events of last month, seems like chingy is getting less and less fills same with don, same with other posters. Is it possible that Don just killed it with his 1000s of minions putting out orders on the same stocks? There must be a limit to this. In most stocks the opening print if only 50000 shares, for guys like lescor that max 10 of them getting the fill, what about the rest of bright. The way to get around that is to tightend the envelope right? But then so does everyone else and at some point there is no edge. The people who are doing this do you feel this way?
I have been thinking of making the jump to openigs but it dosn't seem that good anymore specially with don bright telling everyone how its done, I can't see how this could possibly go on in this hybrid/nms/ unlimited buying power at most firms/computerized world.
I understand why Don does this since he makes huge commisions so whether his traders make 100 or 500 he is still getting his 30$ cut. But he also helps out everyone here not related to Bright so I guess its not about just money for him. OR maybe it is and he is just stuck in his paradigm of only bright traders can participate in strategies that work because they have access to capital and dosn't realize he is hurting them by telling everyone how its done.
I am probbably missing some key element in my logic so maybe traders that have been doing this for awhile can shed some light.
Thanks
I have been thinking of making the jump to openigs but it dosn't seem that good anymore specially with don bright telling everyone how its done, I can't see how this could possibly go on in this hybrid/nms/ unlimited buying power at most firms/computerized world.
I understand why Don does this since he makes huge commisions so whether his traders make 100 or 500 he is still getting his 30$ cut. But he also helps out everyone here not related to Bright so I guess its not about just money for him. OR maybe it is and he is just stuck in his paradigm of only bright traders can participate in strategies that work because they have access to capital and dosn't realize he is hurting them by telling everyone how its done.
I am probbably missing some key element in my logic so maybe traders that have been doing this for awhile can shed some light.
Thanks
swiftmike,
I think you are making a lot of assumptions that may or may not be true.
These were my impressions from a few years ago, keep in mind things may be different at this time.
I took Don's intro course and traded with Bright for a short time.
Here were my observations.
1) Out of the 15-20 people who took the intro, about 7 stayed for boot camp.
2) 6 months later, there were about 2 people from boot camp still trading.
3) I sat in their trading room for about 6 months, along with about 10 other traders.
4) Only 2 of the traders did the opening orders on only 1 stock.
5) One Bright employee who traded in the room did the OO on GE which he only was filled on maybe once per week.
6) Another Bright employee did not do OO.
7) There were about 5 traders in a room on the first floor. None did OO, this room included one man who did well over a million shares per month.
8) A man from Don's pair trading arm came in to speak. He did not trade OO.
My point is this: At the time I was there, a very small percentage of the traders who traded at the Bright Headquarters did OO.
Reading this forum, one could get the impression that ALL Bright traders do the OO. If Don wants to give you the figures he can, but my guess would be maybe 1 in every 10 even trades the strategy. IF Bright had 300 traders, then that is 30 who do it.
I don't think you need to worry about too many shares being traded using the OO strategy.
btw, the person on this forum who seems to be very successful at trading is Lescor. Take a look at his posts. He is very honest and his last post mentions the big hole is was in, but got it back in one day. Trading a strategy for 7 months and losing big, only to recover all loses in 1 day does not seem like a good edge or risk reward to me.
Don and all the Bright's are extremely nice people and genuinely want their traders to succeed. I think they would be the first to tell you that the OO order strategy must be complemented with other ways to make money.
I think you are making a lot of assumptions that may or may not be true.
These were my impressions from a few years ago, keep in mind things may be different at this time.
I took Don's intro course and traded with Bright for a short time.
Here were my observations.
1) Out of the 15-20 people who took the intro, about 7 stayed for boot camp.
2) 6 months later, there were about 2 people from boot camp still trading.
3) I sat in their trading room for about 6 months, along with about 10 other traders.
4) Only 2 of the traders did the opening orders on only 1 stock.
5) One Bright employee who traded in the room did the OO on GE which he only was filled on maybe once per week.
6) Another Bright employee did not do OO.
7) There were about 5 traders in a room on the first floor. None did OO, this room included one man who did well over a million shares per month.
8) A man from Don's pair trading arm came in to speak. He did not trade OO.
My point is this: At the time I was there, a very small percentage of the traders who traded at the Bright Headquarters did OO.
Reading this forum, one could get the impression that ALL Bright traders do the OO. If Don wants to give you the figures he can, but my guess would be maybe 1 in every 10 even trades the strategy. IF Bright had 300 traders, then that is 30 who do it.
I don't think you need to worry about too many shares being traded using the OO strategy.
btw, the person on this forum who seems to be very successful at trading is Lescor. Take a look at his posts. He is very honest and his last post mentions the big hole is was in, but got it back in one day. Trading a strategy for 7 months and losing big, only to recover all loses in 1 day does not seem like a good edge or risk reward to me.
Don and all the Bright's are extremely nice people and genuinely want their traders to succeed. I think they would be the first to tell you that the OO order strategy must be complemented with other ways to make money.
Quote from jdizzle:
Don;
I've read some posts about not being able to get out of a stock during an opening order play and taking a big hit. How often does that happen would you say?
As in any trade, you need to set your mental stops, fully realizing that you're in a 75/25 win loss ratio strategy. The opening strategy gets you in with a high degree of probable success, it's up to each individual trader on how they get out.
FWIW, yesterday we had 150 traders doing the opening strategy.
35,656,008 Number of shares entered.
670,752 Number of shares filled.
I have no way of knowing what the P&L is, because this is just one strategy of many of course.
When the VIX went from 12 to 36, we, of course, have more traders enjoying the opening strategy. I doubt we've ever had fewer than 100 engage in the opening. The reason the Pairs guys say they "don't" engage in it, when they actually do, is that they do in a pairs trading context vs. simply getting in and out.
Thanks for the nice works Comfut, always nice to hear.
Don
http://www.elitetrader.com/vb/showthread.php?threadid=83474
I posted the basics of the strategy in this thread.
As I've said before, trading opening orders is just trading. It gets you in with a small edge, but it is purely trading skill that will determine if you make a profit.
I think it's market volatility more than the number of opg players that determines how tight things are at the open. There are definitely a lot of people involved with this strategy, but a lot of them are inexperienced or under capitalized. A lot of people try it, few stick with it.
Think about it. You're trading the most volatile time of the day, have no idea what stocks, sectors or how many positions you'll have, or how much capital exposure you'll have. When things are bad, they can be real bad, real quick. It's just not for everyone.
I wanted to correct the above poster though who intimated that I make money on this strategy by losing for long periods and then making it all on one big day. Just not true. I've definitely had some outlier big days, but I can count on one hand the number of times I've had more than two consecutive losing weeks in the past 5+ years. YTD is $85,000 for me trading what I call 'traditional' opening orders. That's manually trading a handful of positions, flat in about 15 minutes. I trade a list of 50 stocks with sizes ranging from 2,000 to 15,000 shares.
I posted the basics of the strategy in this thread.
As I've said before, trading opening orders is just trading. It gets you in with a small edge, but it is purely trading skill that will determine if you make a profit.
I think it's market volatility more than the number of opg players that determines how tight things are at the open. There are definitely a lot of people involved with this strategy, but a lot of them are inexperienced or under capitalized. A lot of people try it, few stick with it.
Think about it. You're trading the most volatile time of the day, have no idea what stocks, sectors or how many positions you'll have, or how much capital exposure you'll have. When things are bad, they can be real bad, real quick. It's just not for everyone.
I wanted to correct the above poster though who intimated that I make money on this strategy by losing for long periods and then making it all on one big day. Just not true. I've definitely had some outlier big days, but I can count on one hand the number of times I've had more than two consecutive losing weeks in the past 5+ years. YTD is $85,000 for me trading what I call 'traditional' opening orders. That's manually trading a handful of positions, flat in about 15 minutes. I trade a list of 50 stocks with sizes ranging from 2,000 to 15,000 shares.
No fills today.
To add to comfut's post, the summer months are typically pretty slow for OPGs as well, though there are exceptions at times.
To add to comfut's post, the summer months are typically pretty slow for OPGs as well, though there are exceptions at times.
Corey,
I was refrencing the post below and was trying to impress that OO is not always about picking up money off of the sidewalk everyday.
Thanks for clarifying.
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Lescor post from:
"08-17-07 05:45 PM
About 90 fills and +80k, give or take. That takes me OUT of the hole for the month, it was a rough start.
A lot of sloppy trading lately, would be a good day to have a smart bot"
I was refrencing the post below and was trying to impress that OO is not always about picking up money off of the sidewalk everyday.
Thanks for clarifying.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Lescor post from:
"08-17-07 05:45 PM
About 90 fills and +80k, give or take. That takes me OUT of the hole for the month, it was a rough start.
A lot of sloppy trading lately, would be a good day to have a smart bot"