Slowly your being proved wrong , Sweden 5000 deaths ,a seventh of uk population (equivalent of 35,000 deaths in Uk ) Uk actual deaths over 40,000), plus uk facing very serious 2nd wave possibility and economic pressures now huge.I stated - Life is valuable no matter the age
You stated - Humans are not equal
We are talking about two different things. Simply, there's no debate. That's the point I'm making.
I will now add again (I think you missed it in my reply to someone else)...hospitals have policies in place that its first come first serve. Simply, an elderly that's ill with Covid-19 is treated even if later in the day a young person arrives to the hospital with Covid-19...
The hospital policy will continue treating the elderly and not the young person if the hospital is over capacity. Simply, they will not tell the elderly...I'm sorry, we need your ventilator and bed space for the young person that just arrived with the same illness.
The sooner you understand we're not talking about the same thing, you'll better understand that life is valuable no matter the age nor the health of the world.
As for the Pandemic, Sweden policy makers (elderly folks) made a decision not to lockdown. A decision not made by a 5 year old...another point I'm making.
They have dealt with this Pandemic their own way but are now regretting it. Well...I don't live there and glad I don't because I would be a little upset if my policy makers made a policy decision that put my life at great risk and then is now stating "we have maybe made a mistake".
It's simple about Pandemics...to achieve herd immunity (the goal of their policy)...you must first have either a vaccine or approved treatment. It's similar to other places (e.g. U.S.A.) re-opening too soon prior to any national testing availability. prior to any adequate national contact tracing and prior to a sustain decline on the other side of the infection bell curve...the latter gives the illusion of herd immunity but its what you want.
It's never been achieved any other way and Sweden thought they would be the first to create a new way to achieve herd immunity....ooops.
wrbtrader
Sweden
- Thread starter apdxyk
- Start date
I've made no comparisons to the U.K nor the European Union. Thus, nothing proven wrong. Not sure about what's going on in the U.K. other than that football (soccer) has returned and beaches have re-open (I think).
It's very strange that you quoted my message about Sweden and the U.S.A. although I made no comparison between Sweden / U.S.A. and then you tried to twist it into something about the U.K.
Nice try
I am aware that the U.S.A. has a strong possibility for a 2nd wave although they're currently spiking higher in some of their states while still in the 1st wave...not looking good in those particular states in comparison to other areas of the U.S.A...not sure about the U.K.
Instead, I've either make comparisons of Sweden with its neighbouring countries or Sweden's own health officials stating that they may have made a mistake.
I don't live there nor did I make that statement. The health officials in Sweden made that statement.
Sweden has a higher death rate than Norway, Finland and Denmark...please post something that proves that wrong. By the way, someone else in this thread has consistently been posting the coronavirus / death rate statistical comparison between Sweden, Norway, Finland and Denmark...not me.
The statistics are real...pulled directly from those health monitoring websites.
I've only made general statements about Sweden off those statistic comparison but as I stated...
We have 6 months left in the year. Still enough time for things to change for Sweden but one fact that's starting to recently impact Sweden...their neighbours are shutting the door on Sweden.
May 29th @ https://www.ft.com/content/7f2d8969-4ed1-4095-b995-28915d68517d
June 12th @ https://www.forbes.com/sites/davidn...ries-sweden-restrictions-remain/#2d0daa42260a
If I'm wrong...you saying those articles are not true although its not what you quoted from me ???
I've also mention things about France, Canada and U.S.A...I live there (nothing about the U.K. beyond some guy bragging about giving his mates Covid-19).
The most important fact about Sweden...its impossible to achieve herd immunity without a vaccine. It's never been done any other way except when millions of a population die off and those remaining (the survivors) develop immunity but only after isolation (quarantine) from the sick...
History about Plagues @ https://www.history.com/news/pandemics-end-plague-cholera-black-death-smallpox
World Health Officials state that we should have a vaccine within the next year or so. Then again, they said the same about HIV pandemic...we still don't have a vaccine for HIV after the hundreds of million dollars thrown at it by the best research labs ever put together in modern history.
Sorry for the quick history lesson.
wrbtrader
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I just gave you the statistics for 18-40 in Los Angeles: 3% of the death or 96 in total out of 3,200, even though they were > 50% of those infected. I also gave you the statistics of annual death for all causes in Los Angeles: > 62,000 a year.
Put it another way, you have 96 death out of 50,000 infected (half of 100,000) or 0.19% death rate. Even the LA officials admitted the 50,000 was a gross undercount as there were numerous asymptomatic and untested, so the death rate was likely << 0.19% of those infected.
I am not defending or condoning Sweden, I was just cautioned that when the Los Angeles Health officials kept telling the 18-40 that they were in grave danger of facing death if they didn't practice social distancing, etc. they lost credibility. When that happen, it is very difficult to ask for compliance.
This is my final post on this subject.
You have a good day.
I've seen the governor of California talking about the escalating (rising) infections / hospitalization among that age group 18 - 40 years old.
In contrast, I have not seen any one specifically talking about L.A. until you mention it although I'm not sure about the relationship to Sweden...
Yet, I've seen many governors on TV (about 12) consistently state there was a growing problem with "infections" in that age group but they really didn't talk about "deaths" except for in relationship to the elderly and those with underlying medical conditions...
Consistent with health officials in most states in the U.S.
- You do realize we have 6 months remaining in the year ?
Seriously, Pandemics (the infection) changes very quickly. Any place with abnormal numbers in comparison to their neighbours (usually refer to as an outbreak)...there's an obvious problem. Not really anything to debate about.
Also, most of the commentary I've seen in the stats and media about "death" was aimed at the elderly and those with underlying medical condition...not the 18 - 40 year group as you stated. That group got the message about "carriers of an infection" unless as you stated...
The health officials in L.A. are sending a different message to the 18 - 40 year group about "death".
With that said, there's a growth in the stats in other states that are concerning...more young people are becoming hospitalized as in they're very sick and require hospitalization to prevent from dying. Many do recover but only after being hospitalized.
That in itself is very heavy on the health care system when they could have just wore a mask, wash hands and social distancing...something others (like the elderly) are less likely able to do.
Seriously, in other places (not talking about L.A.)...what's the point of going to a crowded bar with no face mask and no social distancing when you can invite over a few friends and eat / drink in your own back yard / patio / house ?
Actually, it seems like that only those that think not being able to go to the bar or a restaurant or not being able to go to a party are in an uproar about the face mask issue / social distancing.
Sadly, some of those young idiots are now threatening lawsuits after being hospitalized against the business that allowed them to enter without a mask or without social distancing. That's just stupidity and they're scaring business owners into shutting down on their own for fear of lawsuits or serious illness to their employees that are older or have underlying health conditions.
Maybe its time for those business owners of bars / restaurants / cafes / salon or whatever via having their customers sign a waiver of no liability if the client wants to enter and use the services of the business (e.g. bars and restaurants).
I also have a home in Chicago (north side)...grew up there for awhile when I was young. I know the area very well...a lot of young folks and the bars are big business in that area. Until a vaccine is develop...if young people want to go into crowded areas for a service (have a beer with friends)...make them sign a waiver of no liability.
wrbtrader
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I've made no comparisons to the U.K nor the European Union. Thus, nothing proven wrong. Not sure about what's going on in the U.K. other than that football (soccer) has returned and beaches have re-open (I think).
It's very strange that you quoted my message about Sweden and the U.S.A. although I made no comparison between Sweden / U.S.A. and then you tried to twist it into something about the U.K.
Nice try
I am aware that the U.S.A. has a strong possibility for a 2nd wave although they're currently spiking higher in some of their states while still in the 1st wave...not looking good in those particular states in comparison to other areas of the U.S.A...not sure about the U.K.
Instead, I've either make comparisons of Sweden with its neighbouring countries or Sweden's own health officials stating that they may have made a mistake.
I don't live there nor did I make that statement. The health officials in Sweden made that statement.
Sweden has a higher death rate than Norway, Finland and Denmark...please post something that proves that wrong. By the way, someone else in this thread has consistently been posting the coronavirus / death rate statistical comparison between Sweden, Norway, Finland and Denmark...not me.
The statistics are real...pulled directly from those health monitoring websites.
I've only made general statements about Sweden off those statistic comparison but as I stated...
We have 6 months left in the year. Still enough time for things to change for Sweden but one fact that's starting to recently impact Sweden...their neighbours are shutting the door on Sweden.
May 29th @ https://www.ft.com/content/7f2d8969-4ed1-4095-b995-28915d68517d
June 12th @ https://www.forbes.com/sites/davidn...ries-sweden-restrictions-remain/#2d0daa42260a
If I'm wrong...you saying those articles are not true although its not what you quoted from me ???
I've also mention things about France, Canada and U.S.A...I live there (nothing about the U.K. beyond some guy bragging about giving his mates Covid-19).
The most important fact about Sweden...its impossible to achieve herd immunity without a vaccine. It's never been done any other way except when millions of a population die off and those remaining (the survivors) develop immunity but only after isolation (quarantine) from the sick...
History about Plagues @ https://www.history.com/news/pandemics-end-plague-cholera-black-death-smallpox
World Health Officials state that we should have a vaccine within the next year or so. Then again, they said the same about HIV pandemic...we still don't have a vaccine for HIV after the hundreds of million dollars thrown at it by the best research labs ever put together in modern history.
Sorry for the quick history lesson.
wrbtrader
- Your quite right , I intended to reply to your post that did talk about Sweden, where you said"oops"at the end , for some reason , probably my own fault , my reply seemed to attach itself to the wrong post. I stand by my reply that your slowly being proved wrong in that context, as not just the Uk but many countries are facing 2nd spikes now , with their economies giving little room for maneuver, Sweden now being one of the few countries that could afford a severe lockdown at this point , though death rate and new cases seem to be falling rapidly.
Yeah, my "ooops" sarcasm was specifically aimed at the Swedish health officials and Swedish government that have now publicly stated they may have made a mistake based upon their effort to try to achieve herd immunity without the critical variable of having a vaccine and their economy is still taking a big hit as if they did do a lockdown...
A hit more associated with the response by neighbouring countries that are opening their borders but not to Sweden.
In comparison, the U.S. citizens (not the U.K.) are now going to be prohibited from travelling into Europe except for essential services.
What comes around goes around (sarcasm) after the U.S. did the same to other countries early in the Pandemic.
To be very specific, the U.S. has a problem with their leadership and mixed messages from state to state about the Coronavirus whereas Sweden has a problem with their death rate in comparison to their neighbouring countries.
Businesses are re-opening but more and more are choosing to stay close or close some of the stores in problematic areas as in self-imposed lockdown.
P.S. Rumour is that China has now developed a vaccine. If true and it works, Sweden should be first in line to get their hands on that vaccine to prove everybody was wrong about their approach that they can in fact achieve herd immunity.
Then again, if its true about China/vaccine...so will Sweden's neighbours gain access to the vaccine but with less deaths in comparison to Sweden ?
wrbtrader
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Its an election year...a no response to a Pandemic is a guarantee election defeat after all of the shouting of Make America Great Again. In addition, they knew they could afford to temporary shutdown the economy and then print money to prop up the markets to give an illusion its no big deal for those more worried about their money even though we all know there are little holes in the dam with that approach.
I'm not too concerned about those under 17 and the jury is still out about any long term effects considering there's a growing list of children becoming infected...showing other illnesses.
In contrast, I'm more concerned about the 18 - 35 year old folks. Actually, I'm more concerned now because there's an increasing number of infections and hospitalization from this group since Memorial Day holidays.
Also, I don't know your age, ethnicity, neighborhood you're living in, people you hang out with nor anything about your medical history. Thus, can't tell you if you should be worried about Covid-19 or being murder in L.A.
Only you can answer that and then determine which is more important to you.
Actually, maybe those you voted into office in California are better suited than me to determine how valuable is one life, 10 lives, 100 lives, 1000 lives, 10,000 lives or 100,000 lives if death were to occur via a no response.
The world has a history of no responses / very little response to Pandemics and then paid a price they couldn't afford in comparison to responding to minimize the damage (most will bounce back from).
The thing about a Pandemic...things change fast...unpredictable. Today, it may seem like they had cried wolf...tomorrow it may seem like they didn't cry loud enough. As stated many times, we won't know the real damage until the end of the year. Until then...what's obvious today may not be obvious tomorrow.
Better safe than sorry
Yet, its obvious the 18 - 35 year old folks have made their choice and must now sleep in the bed they've made. Then again...I'm curious what the same group will say when a vaccine is discovered and approved. Will they take the vaccine or say no because they think Covid-19 is no big deal ?
If they take the vaccine, does it imply Covid-19 is in fact a big deal to them ?
wrbtrader
Plus its not just about deaths.
My brother-in-law is 39. Super healthy, runs marathons and triathalons. He’s not going to have serious lung issues.
He got COVID from a coworker 3 months ago. He had one day where he felt miserable, but otherwise okay. He still can’t taste or smell. No one knows if these senses will come back.
Same with me about the prior health before becoming sick.
I became ill in 2016 from something much worst than Covid-19. Former top athlete in college and junior national level, in top condition, still training as if I was still competing, extreme winter hiking/camping in the mountains, super healthy...
I lost my taste and smell from the illness in 2016...still slowly getting it back with the hearing. I was 49 years old...looking like I was 30. Just glad to be back to my prior training activities...it was a long road of recovery.
Yeah, exactly, not about the number of deaths or death rate. It's about other issues impacted from these types of diseases. There's also a financial toll...most not prepare for that if they've had to be hospitalized, coma, incubated or life support for several weeks to a few months.
Yet, 3 months is a danger zone.
I was lucky in my unluck (french saying). I was prepared but it could have been much worst had I not been in such good shape / good health prior to the illness.
wrbtrader
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If you're going to compare Sweden to the rest of the world...
Do it properly because there's too many fact checkers at this forum.
In fact, Denmark / Finland / Norway...neighbours of Sweden is a very good comparison.
Infection (total cases) / Total Deaths / Overall Rank as of 2 days ago:
Sweden - 68,451 / 5,333 / 23rd
Denmark - 12,794 / 606 / 63rd
Norway - 8,887 / 250 / 69th
Finland - 7,236 / 328 / 73rd
I don't need to be a genius to know which country should be a model for the rest of the world. Sweden is the worst performer in comparison to its neighbours (Denmark, Norway, Finland) that have decided to exclude Sweden for it poor handling of the Coronavirus...
Very similar to Europe now excluding U.S.A. citizens from entering Europe except for essential workers.
Yet, if you're good at denying the facts along with ignoring what Sweden's health officials are now saying about their goal of herd immunity...
Just keep comparing Sweden to itself.
Hopefully, Sweden does not become worst via moving higher up on the below graph as in its current place of 23rd.
By the way, if the below list was rank via number of Deaths...Sweden is 17th on the list as of 2 days ago June 29th 2020 and still performing worst that Denmark / Norway / Finland.
https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/
Personally, Sweden is doing much better than France, Canada and the U.S...countries key for me.
I prefer to compare Sweden to the rest of the world instead of to itself...not sure why people prefer to be misleading via doing the latter. As stated, too many fact checkers here at ET.
Also, there's a big plus for Sweden that most of the other countries are doing very poor with...Sweden's health officials are very quick to close bars and restaurants that are not doing proper social distancing instead of allowing the owners to decide for themselves.
In comparison, other countries have been allowing the business owners and the city to make that decision of closing down again. So far...those countries have skyrocketing infections / deaths.
Simply, leave it to the people to be socially responsible...they fail at it miserable except for Sweden / Denmark / Norway / Finland although he latter 3 countries are not trying to achieve herd immunity before a vaccine is develop.
wrbtrader
Do it properly because there's too many fact checkers at this forum.
In fact, Denmark / Finland / Norway...neighbours of Sweden is a very good comparison.
Infection (total cases) / Total Deaths / Overall Rank as of 2 days ago:
Sweden - 68,451 / 5,333 / 23rd
Denmark - 12,794 / 606 / 63rd
Norway - 8,887 / 250 / 69th
Finland - 7,236 / 328 / 73rd
I don't need to be a genius to know which country should be a model for the rest of the world. Sweden is the worst performer in comparison to its neighbours (Denmark, Norway, Finland) that have decided to exclude Sweden for it poor handling of the Coronavirus...
Very similar to Europe now excluding U.S.A. citizens from entering Europe except for essential workers.
Yet, if you're good at denying the facts along with ignoring what Sweden's health officials are now saying about their goal of herd immunity...
Just keep comparing Sweden to itself.
Hopefully, Sweden does not become worst via moving higher up on the below graph as in its current place of 23rd.
By the way, if the below list was rank via number of Deaths...Sweden is 17th on the list as of 2 days ago June 29th 2020 and still performing worst that Denmark / Norway / Finland.
https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/
Personally, Sweden is doing much better than France, Canada and the U.S...countries key for me.
I prefer to compare Sweden to the rest of the world instead of to itself...not sure why people prefer to be misleading via doing the latter. As stated, too many fact checkers here at ET.
Also, there's a big plus for Sweden that most of the other countries are doing very poor with...Sweden's health officials are very quick to close bars and restaurants that are not doing proper social distancing instead of allowing the owners to decide for themselves.
In comparison, other countries have been allowing the business owners and the city to make that decision of closing down again. So far...those countries have skyrocketing infections / deaths.
Simply, leave it to the people to be socially responsible...they fail at it miserable except for Sweden / Denmark / Norway / Finland although he latter 3 countries are not trying to achieve herd immunity before a vaccine is develop.
wrbtrader
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