Sound like Christians to me.
- Thread starter Cache Landing
- Start date
rcan:
>What it frankly comes down to, is if defining this from
>a human point of view, religion makes little difference.
>If you define it from the biblical point of view, then
>Mormonism is nothing but a cult.
You do know that people like you who say that *their* interpretation of the scriptures is the correct one and excluding other groups from being "christians" are a dime a dozen -- many groups argue that the catholics are not christians.
>The New Testament fulfilled massive amounts
>of Old Testament prophecy, and in its finality,
>says very clearly:
>Revelation 22:18-19 I warn everyone who hears
>the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone
>adds anything to them, God will add to him the
>plagues described in this book. And if anyone takes
>words away from this book of prophecy, God will take
>away from him his share in the tree of life and in the
>holy city, which are described in this book.
Unfortunately for you, the new testament also contradicts itself (just as clearly) on this very point -- and I will post these contradictions in a moment.
>If you can explain in any convincing way how the
>Book of Mormon is anything less than a complete
>violation of scripture, adding large amounts of new
>"scripture", then go right ahead.
Uhhh...OK, I will --
The following scripture are held by several major christian denominations (tens of millions of members) to demonstrate NOT ONLY that the bible ALLOWS for new prophets (and thus new scripture), but actually REQUIRES it as a test of the "true church".
[excerpts throughout for brevity]
1st Corinthians 12: 4-10 KJV
Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit.
And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord.
And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all.
For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;
To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;
To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:
Eph. 4: 11-13 KJV
And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
The above make it clear (to some) that yes, the gospel does allow for new enlightments/edifications and interpretations through the gift of prophecy.
Not only that, but it is interpreted by some denominations that in the end, the definition of the true church IS this gift of divine inspired prophecy...
Rev. 19:10 defines the "testimony of Jesus Christ" as the "spirit of prophecy" and Rev. 12:17 states that the end church will have this spirit of prophecy as one of two marks of the true embattled body. ... "And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ."
JB
>What it frankly comes down to, is if defining this from
>a human point of view, religion makes little difference.
>If you define it from the biblical point of view, then
>Mormonism is nothing but a cult.
You do know that people like you who say that *their* interpretation of the scriptures is the correct one and excluding other groups from being "christians" are a dime a dozen -- many groups argue that the catholics are not christians.
>The New Testament fulfilled massive amounts
>of Old Testament prophecy, and in its finality,
>says very clearly:
>Revelation 22:18-19 I warn everyone who hears
>the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone
>adds anything to them, God will add to him the
>plagues described in this book. And if anyone takes
>words away from this book of prophecy, God will take
>away from him his share in the tree of life and in the
>holy city, which are described in this book.
Unfortunately for you, the new testament also contradicts itself (just as clearly) on this very point -- and I will post these contradictions in a moment.
>If you can explain in any convincing way how the
>Book of Mormon is anything less than a complete
>violation of scripture, adding large amounts of new
>"scripture", then go right ahead.
Uhhh...OK, I will --
The following scripture are held by several major christian denominations (tens of millions of members) to demonstrate NOT ONLY that the bible ALLOWS for new prophets (and thus new scripture), but actually REQUIRES it as a test of the "true church".
[excerpts throughout for brevity]
1st Corinthians 12: 4-10 KJV
Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit.
And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord.
And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all.
For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;
To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;
To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:
Eph. 4: 11-13 KJV
And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
The above make it clear (to some) that yes, the gospel does allow for new enlightments/edifications and interpretations through the gift of prophecy.
Not only that, but it is interpreted by some denominations that in the end, the definition of the true church IS this gift of divine inspired prophecy...
Rev. 19:10 defines the "testimony of Jesus Christ" as the "spirit of prophecy" and Rev. 12:17 states that the end church will have this spirit of prophecy as one of two marks of the true embattled body. ... "And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ."
JB
Sorry, I thought the point was obvious. The statement was in relation to the thread title. That Mormons are indeed Christians.
rcan:
>If you define it from the biblical point of view, then
>Mormonism is nothing but a cult.
Well, unfortunately for you rcan, the world doesn't feel compelled to go by *your* interpretation of "biblical", but rather prefers to use something like Webster's. Feel free to maintain the integrity of yours just the same though.
***********************************
Webster's online dictionary:
>Main Entry: 1Chris·tian
>Pronunciation: 'kris-ch&n, 'krish-
>Function: noun
>Etymology: Latin christianus, adjective & n., from Greek >christianos, from Christos
>1 a : one who professes belief in the teachings of Jesus Christ
Primary definition..."one who professes belief in the teachings of Jesus Christ".
Joseph Smith himself:
"the fundamental principles of our religion are the testimony of the Apostles and Prophets, concerning Jesus Christ, that He died, was buried, and rose again the third day, and ascended into heaven; and all other things which pertain to our religion are only appendages to it" (TPJS, p. 121).
Encyclopedia of Mormonism:
"Latter-day Saints believe that complete salvation is possible only through the life, death, resurrection, doctrines, and ordinances of Jesus Christ and in no other way."
Dr. Stephen Robinson: Professor of Philosophy and Theology at New Orleans Baptist Theological Seminary. Previously, served as Teaching Fellow at Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary, Fort Worth, Texas (1994-1998), as the Senior Pastor of Mayfield Road Baptist Church, Arlington, Texas (May 1995-July 1998) and as Pastor of First Baptist Church, Maypearl, Texas (May 1989-April 1995).
"Surely by now it will have dawned on the discerning reader that of all the various arguments against Latter-day Saints being considered Christians, not one--not a single one--claims that Latter-day Saints don't acknowledge Jesus Christ as Lord. Consider the enormous implications of this fact. The only issue that really matters is the only issue that is carefully avoided!"
***********************************
rcan, there's nothing in the Webster's definition of Christianity that says denomination must be theologically identical (or even remotely similar) to be Christian.
>If you define it from the biblical point of view, then
>Mormonism is nothing but a cult.
Well, unfortunately for you rcan, the world doesn't feel compelled to go by *your* interpretation of "biblical", but rather prefers to use something like Webster's. Feel free to maintain the integrity of yours just the same though.
***********************************
Webster's online dictionary:
>Main Entry: 1Chris·tian
>Pronunciation: 'kris-ch&n, 'krish-
>Function: noun
>Etymology: Latin christianus, adjective & n., from Greek >christianos, from Christos
>1 a : one who professes belief in the teachings of Jesus Christ
Primary definition..."one who professes belief in the teachings of Jesus Christ".
Joseph Smith himself:
"the fundamental principles of our religion are the testimony of the Apostles and Prophets, concerning Jesus Christ, that He died, was buried, and rose again the third day, and ascended into heaven; and all other things which pertain to our religion are only appendages to it" (TPJS, p. 121).
Encyclopedia of Mormonism:
"Latter-day Saints believe that complete salvation is possible only through the life, death, resurrection, doctrines, and ordinances of Jesus Christ and in no other way."
Dr. Stephen Robinson: Professor of Philosophy and Theology at New Orleans Baptist Theological Seminary. Previously, served as Teaching Fellow at Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary, Fort Worth, Texas (1994-1998), as the Senior Pastor of Mayfield Road Baptist Church, Arlington, Texas (May 1995-July 1998) and as Pastor of First Baptist Church, Maypearl, Texas (May 1989-April 1995).
"Surely by now it will have dawned on the discerning reader that of all the various arguments against Latter-day Saints being considered Christians, not one--not a single one--claims that Latter-day Saints don't acknowledge Jesus Christ as Lord. Consider the enormous implications of this fact. The only issue that really matters is the only issue that is carefully avoided!"
***********************************
rcan, there's nothing in the Webster's definition of Christianity that says denomination must be theologically identical (or even remotely similar) to be Christian.
Hmmm. I actually hadn't ever put that together. Thanks for the reference.
I would go one further by saying that it is also a requirement of Christ's church to have apostles. The LDS church places special significance on the idea that Christ organized a church with 12 apostles, and meant for that body to continue. Thus the LDS church has a body of 12 apostles as referenced in Eph. chapter 4.
And also that a professed Christian designates someone as an "oddball" for claiming that the gift of interpretation of tongues exists, is beyond me. It would seem after reading your post containing 1 Cor 12, that anyone who denies the gift of interpretation of tongues is actually in direct violation of accepted scripture.
Mormons are comical really. They start newbies off with a story about how Jesus and Lucifer are equals but with different plans for redemption for people and then years later the members go through a ceremony where they swear allegiance to Lucifer!! Masonics do the same thing, they get to 30th degree and then they are asked to swear allegiance to Lucifer, if they refuse they are told that it was a test and they passed but after that they are never asked to go higher in the organization... to me Mormons are an offshoot of Masonicism...
The old testament is not to be discarded. It says that "God is one" in Deut.
Beyond that,
"The Mormon Church teaches that there was a great and total apostasy of the Church as established by Jesus Christ; this state of apostasy "still prevails except among those who have come to a knowledge of the restored gospel" of the Mormon Church (Gospel Principles, pp. 105-106; Mormon Doctrine, p. 44).
If the Mormon Church believes it is the only true Christian Church, it should not attempt to publicly present itself as a part of a broader Christian community. Instead it should tell the world openly that those who claim to be orthodox Christians are not really Christians at all, and that the Mormon Church is the only true Christian Church. This in fact is what it teaches privately, but not publicly." from http://www.irr.org/mit/Is-Mormonism-Christian.html