POLL: The repercussions of a US attack on Iraq

[wild]

U.S. Had Key Role in Iraq Buildup
Trade in Chemical Arms Allowed Despite Their Use on Iranians, Kurds


By Michael Dobbs
Washington Post Staff Writer
Monday, December 30, 2002; Page A01


High on the Bush administration's list of justifications for war against Iraq are President Saddam Hussein's use of chemical weapons, nuclear and biological programs, and his contacts with international terrorists. What U.S. officials rarely acknowledge is that these offenses date back to a period when Hussein was seen in Washington as a valued ally.

more at http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A52241-2002Dec29.html

regards

wild

 

[wild]

excerpt from ET chat

...

wild (ID=3086) (Dec 31, 2002 2:53:35 PM)

2003 will be better: peace & democracy in Iraq ... victorious "nucular" war in North Korea

OPTIONAL777 (ID=3049) (Dec 31, 2002 2:53:51 PM)

killing a bunch of germans would make it a very good year

...

 

[hapaboy]

This thread is too long to read all the posts, but I'd like to comment anyway. Sorry if I repeat anything already mentioned.

Look, whether or not we attack Iraq is irrelevant. Why? Well, I would imagine the events of 9/11 and others would make it crystal clear: Our enemies WANT TO KILL US!! What about 9/11
didn't you understand?!? They want to kill you, your wife, your children, our economy, our entire way of life. Do you really think 9/11 was a mere attention getter?!? That they're planning on stopping after that? If so, you must honestly believe that Bin Laden & Co. had this kind of conversation prior to 9/11:

Bin Laden: I know. Let's hijack some planes and crash them into the World Trade Center, the Pentagon, and the Capitol or the White House!!

Cronies: Sounds good! Allah be praised!

Bin Laden: Maybe that will wake America up and make them consider their capitalist foreign policies, support of Israel, and occupation of holy soil in Saudi Arabia!

Cronies: Allah be praised! Pass the hummus, would you Bin?

Bin Laden: Sorry...here's the feta cheese, too....AND IF THEY STOP SUPPORTING ISRAEL, REMOVE THEIR TROOPS FROM SAUDI ARABIA, AND STOP INTERVENING OVERSEAS, WE WILL LEAVE THEM ALONE!

....Please! Bin Laden and Co.'s sole intent is to make this country
a smoldering ash and to kill as many of us as they can in the process. They HATE US and WANT TO KILL US! Period! I can't believe the events of 9/11 didn't make that abundantly clear to every single American, liberal or conservative. It isn't a matter of who did what, or when. It is now simply a matter of SURVIVAL! What is it going to take for those among you to understand that? A mushroom cloud over NYC or LA?

Candle, your poll of possible terrorist acts is meaningless because
those acts have been considered and planned regardless of whether we attack Iraq or not.

But Candle, you and others are right in the sense that the US
has made some serious foreign policy errors. We do consume a lot of the world's resources. We do support some totalitarian regimes. But you know what? We also do a lot of things right. We help many nations stay on their feet with aid, we are the sole reason why many nations haven't been gobbled up by their bigger neighbors, etc. etc. The list goes on and on. Without the US, the world would be a much bigger mess than it is now.

Winston Churchill said it best: "Democracy is the worst form of government, except for all the rest." So yes, we are flawed. And yes, we are hypocritical at times. But as flawed and hypocritical as we may be sometimes, we are the beacon of freedom the world over and an inspiration to billions, yes billions.

It's very easy to hate the big guy, that's what the US is, but the dirty little secret is that the majority of the masses who berate our country would give their left nut or breast if they could live here. Heck, many of 'em are wearing Levi's, Nikes, and eating at McDonald's or KFC for lunch. Or they're wishing to Allah that they could. A lot of the hatred aimed at the US is merely a heightened form of penis envy.

I grew up overseas as a US government brat. I lived in 10 countries by the time I was 17,have visited twice that many, lived abroad for 3 years after college. Basically, I've lived among and interacted with people all over the world, including Muslims.
I lived in Egypt for two years of high school, and Iran and visited Malaysia many times, and I have to tell you, although I have encountered Egyptians, Iranians and Malaysians who didn't like America, I met far many more who really look up to us and aspire to live here so they can enjoy the freedoms and opportunities we have. Look at Iran now! Their Islamic Revolution has stalled. Its people openly call for renewed ties with the US. Why? Because the fundamentalist government restricts their FREEDOM! Religion may be the opiate of the masses, but, like any drug, it eventually wears off. Except for the addicts (fanatics), i.e. Bin Laden and Co.

The coming war with Iraq is NOT about oil. Kuwait and Desert Storm was. This war is about preventing a hostile enemy making weapons of mass destruction and using those weapons against us and/or providing those weapons to those who would use them against us, i.e. Bin Laden. Do any of you honestly believe that Bin Laden would hesitate to use a nuke or bio/chemical
weapon against us if he had it? Can he be given the slightest chance to acquire such a weapon?

In the end, the US will do what it has to do to protect itself. I could care less what the rest of the international community thinks. Hey, if some psycho threatens to kill your family, are you going to give one hoot about what your neighbors say? So no, America will defend itself, and people like Candle will bitch and moan and the Arab street will protest. And millions in this country will attack the Bush administration for it. At least they live in a country where they have the freedom to protest.

For all you US haters out there, I sometimes wish America would just do what all of you wish it would do - emasculate its military (like Clinton did his damned best to do) and become totally insular in the international arena. Just let the world fend for itself. It would almost be worth it to see your faces when chaos, REAL chaos, erupts on a global scale and you are all crying for America to come and save your sorry asses.

 

[max401]

RS7 retracted his last off topic UM post, just as well. Here's my last one on this topic:

RS7, you do offer crazy and wildly inconsistent statements. I simply pointed out these out, each time you throw a temper tantrum. It’s almost as if you are wanting the attention. On this UM subject, your comments are baffling:

You say you graduated UM in June of 1969 and by never mentioning attendance at another school, you lead one to believe you went there for the whole four years. Then you say:

"I was an undergird[sic] at one of those half dozen universities. In 1969, we had our very first african american football player."

“...he was the first black player (to my knowledge) to play for Miami.”

Ray Bellamy- played Fall of 1967, first black to play for Miami

Tom Sullivan played Fall of 1968, second black to play for Miami

Chuck Foreman played Fall of 1969, third black to play for Miami

Burgess Owens, played Fall of 1969, fourth black to play for Miami

“In either event, there were no black players playing on the Miami team when I was there...”

You brought Foreman up as a major big deal that you witnessed, first black player at UM. Then you said that you were mistaken, there were no black players while you were there, but the facts prove that this monumental first black player event did occur during your attendance. As well as the second.

I’m sorry, I guess you just want to post anything you want with RS7, with complete impunity.

 

[rs7]

Quote from hapaboy:

This thread is too long to read all the posts, but I'd like to comment anyway.

Excellent post. Really. I agree with almost all you have said.

I disagree about Clinton trying to "emasculate" the military, but perhaps your background comes into play here as far as your feelings on this issue.

Cutting the defense budget (or trying to) in no way, in today's world, reduces our ability to defend ourselves. Or to wage war, if necessary.

The cost over-runs on equipment that is obsolete before it can even be deployed SHOULD be avoided.

Armored troop carriers that sink when they should float shouldn't have more money thrown into their development.

Weapons systems that are developed to fight enemies that don't exist are a waste of money.

The size of the military is not what matters. The efficiencey matters. The training and the strategy and the tactical (and practical) weapons matter.

I don't propose to stop reasearch in advanced weapons. We should have the technology available (and understood) for whatever needs may arise in the future (which hopefully will be none).

But the fact remains that we are not likely to get into a shooting war with Russia. Or France. Or Great Britain. Or any of the other countries that could repel an attack by us with the weapons we have.

Do we need stealth Bombers to attack Iraq? Do we need a Strategic Defense Initiative to protect us from Al Quada? (or anyone?)

How many ICBM carrying submarines do we need cruising the oceans?

How many carrier fleets do we really need?

(my son is going into the Nuclear Propulsion School in June, so for him, I guess we need all we can get). But the reality is, if we had an enemy worthy of our power, then these fleets would have a survival time of less than a day.

I don't propose to eliminate what we have. I only propose to keep what we have in the best working order possible. With the best trained soldiers and sailors we can produce.

As far as future weaponry, sure, develop the theories, do the R&D. But why spend the money now to develop and try to deploy weapons we MAY want or need in 30 years? This is not an efficient way to plan ahead.


Peace,
And Happy New Year,
rs7

 

[rs7]

Quote from max401:

RS7 retracted his last off topic UM post, just as well. Here's my last one on this topic:

Max, you are a true mental case. When I was at Miami, they drafted Chuck Foreman. That was a big deal at the time. I did not get to see him play.
As for the other black players, well they may have been on the team .... maybe the practice squads, who knows? But I don' t recall seeing them play, nor are they in my college yearbooks.

Let me know where you are, I can't get my scanner to work. But if it is so important to you, I will go to Kinkos and get it done there. If you will let me hand deliver it all to you. Just give me your address, telephone number, and I will personally give whatever it is you would like from me. Matter of fact, I don't need Kinkos, I will just bring the yearbooks. Anything for you maxie. Just tell me how to find you.

Open offer!!!

So go do your research and "prove" me wrong. It is obviously what you live for.

get a life. leave me out of it!

Edit:

Well, the fine and important research of Maxie pays off for him. Looking at the 68 yearbook, there indeed was Ray Bellamy. So I was wrong, and maxie was right. And yup, don't know how I missed it, but he was indeed on the varsity squad the next season. So I suppose this puts an end to it all. Every recollection I have is worthless. Everything Maxie says sends us all an URGENT MESSAGE! Which is he has nothing better to do than research my posts, and hopefully come up with a lapse of my memory. Like this. Do I remember Ray Bellamy playing? Nope! So therefore, I could never have lived in Aspen, skied in Chamonix, traded in Monaco, had a French visa, had a son, had a wife, traded stocks or options, blah, blah, blah.

Quote from max401:

“...he was the first black player (to my knowledge) to play for Miami.”

[/B]

Sorry I said "to my knowledge". Should have said "in my recollection". Would that have absolved me? Doubtful.

 

[max401]

Quote from rs7:



Max, you are a true mental case. When I was at Miami, they drafted Chuck Foreman. That was a big deal at the time. I did not get to see him play.
As for the other black players, well they may have been on the team .... maybe the practice squads, who knows? But I don' t recall seeing them play, nor are they in my college yearbooks.

Let me know where you are, I can't get my scanner to work. But if it is so important to you, I will go to Kinkos and get it done there. If you will let me hand deliver it all to you. Just give me your address, telephone number, and I will personally give whatever it is you would like from me. Matter of fact, I don't need Kinkos, I will just bring the yearbooks. Anything for you maxie. Just tell me how to find you.

Open offer!!!

So go do your research and "prove" me wrong. It is obviously what you live for.

get a life. leave me out of it!

Edit:

Well, the fine and important research of Maxie pays off for him. Looking at the 68 yearbook, there indeed was Ray Bellamy. So I was wrong, and maxie was right. And yup, don't know how I missed it, but he was indeed on the varsity squad the next season. So I suppose this puts an end to it all. Every recollection I have is worthless. Everything Maxie says sends us all an URGENT MESSAGE! Which is he has nothing better to do than research my posts, and hopefully come up with a lapse of my memory. Like this. Do I remember Ray Bellamy playing? Nope! So therefore, I could never have lived in Aspen, skied in Chamonix, traded in Monaco, had a French visa, had a son, had a wife, traded stocks or options, blah, blah, blah.

Research to prove you wrong? You're in that FFL thing so I assume you have some knowledge of football and presumably the number of pro players that UM has turned out over the years. Currently there are 32 'Canes in the NFL. Why do you always present trhese wild contextually inaccurate presumptions? For example, the UM deal has nothing do with your Monaco excursion, but your not having a clue on the geography certainly does.

The first black player was most certainly there when you say you were:

BELLAMY, RAY # 81 TE 1968-71

Maybe you went to Miami U of Ohio?

 

[rs7]

Quote from max401:

Research to prove you wrong?

Don't you ever get bored with this? I said I saw Bellamy in the yearbook. I did not remember. Big deal. Sue me.

Actually a suit from you would be most welcome. Only way to find out where you are, and what you are. So please, make it happen.

Well, Max, it is New Years Eve. Time to get ready to get out. I will be with my wife and friends. You can spend the night doing more research about Miami football players, BMW V8 engines from 1995 and other important issues.

You truly are pathetic.

Happy Hunting. I would wish you a happy new year, but what makes you happy is anathema to the normal world, so I won't.

 

[candletrader]

Ahh! The max versus rs7 show has arrived in my thread!

Happy New Year guys!

Make a new year's resolution to agree on something, perhaps

 

[Kicking]

If the U.S. goes ahead with its plan of "preemptive" war against Iraq and God forbid other rogue nations it will be viewed rightly as an unwarranted agression. I don't think we'll see massive terrorist attacks in the US even with the blatant incompetence of US law enforcement agencies (since 9/11 it seems they were just there to make American Muslims lives miserable, take away people's civil liberties and relay the White House propaganda while bombarding the public with false alerts).

What we are going to see though is more innocent Americans and Westerners who have NOTHING to do with this becoming targets anywhere outside the US (like the recent humanitarian workers shot in the Middle East or the travelers in Bali- those were not Americans that's probably why the Bali bombing didn't make so much of an impact in the US!)

All this is happening because of your government (and those who support it, mainly the Republicans I guess) . Don't you get it?
Bush is more dangerous than Osama! Since 9/11 he has only made things worse and is about to start a war that could lead us all to Armageddon. GET RID OF THAT MORON (and his hellraising team) BEFORE IT'S TOO LATE! BUSH IS A MADMAN far more dangerous than Saddam (hell he's got far more weapons of mass destruction than the little dictator from Baghdad). Do you REALLY think Iraq can attack the US as the moron suggested in his New Year's speech? Gimme a break! they don't even have one missile to hit Cyprus if they wanted to! There is no need to attack Iraq.

I love the US but here in Europe, let alone in the Middle East, Asia whatever! almost everybody dislikes or hates America and it is getting worse every day the moron is in the White House, he's just on a mission to destroy everything: the economy (HE ALREADY CRIPPLED THE ECONOMY AN "IRAQI ATTACK"IS NOT NECESSARY TO DO WHAT HE'S ALREADY DONE), the environment, civil rights and individual liberties, and thousands of peoples lives(maybe yours). BUSH IS DOING MAJOR LONG TERM DAMAGE TO THE US AND THE WAY IT IS PERCEIVED ABROAD , it will take decades to repair.

The combination of 9/11 and Bush is the worst thing that happened to America in a long time.
It's not what happens to you but the way you react to it.

PEACE in 2003 (let's hope for it)