POLL: The repercussions of a US attack on Iraq

[MondoTrader]

"all of earth's inhabitants will belong to the same tribe, one not centered on any religion."

Human individuality is a good thing. Trying to stamp everyone into the same mold is fascist and evil. Freedom of religion is a good thing. By the way, freedom of religion includes your right to be an atheist or an agnostic if you choose. Forcing everyone into the same "tribe" and stripping them of their cultural heritage would be the single greatest repressive act in the history of the world.

 

[Gordon Gekko]

e pluribus unum - out of many, one

that's the way it should be. in america, you can believe any religion or no religion and you are still an american. even you bible pushers should want this. hopefully someday the world will be this way, as well. we're all different, but we're all earthlings.

 

[aphexcoil]

Quote from Gordon Gekko:

e pluribus unum - out of many, one

that's the way it should be. in america, you can believe any religion or no religion and you are still an american. even you bible pushers should want this. hopefully someday the world will be this way, as well. we're all different, but we're all earthlings.

There is no religion that can save us, since we are all going to someone else's hell.

 

[Josh_B]

While we try to get Iraq's oil at any cost, pretending saddam is a threat, a much greater and real threat, and another very possible source of nukes for terrorists, maybe N Korea:

....While North Korea has said it wants to open negotiations with the United States, U.S. officials have so far refused, saying the United States will not enter into dialogue in response to threats or broken commitments.

The refusal by the United States to negotiate could lead to an "uncontrollable catastrophe," North Korea's state-run Rodong Sinmun newspaper has warned. (Full story)

In the event of a nuclear conflict, he said, North Korea would deal a "merciless punishment" to the United States.

"If they, ignorant of their rival, dare provoke a nuclear war, the army and people of the DPRK led by Kim Jong Il, the invincible commander, will rise up to mete out determined and merciless punishment to the U.S. imperialist aggressors with the might of single-hearted unity more powerful than A-bomb," he said....

http://www.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/asiapcf/east/12/24/nkorea.us.nukes/index.html


Fortunately for them and us, they have no oil (they must import) otherwise, some or our carriers would have been there already.

But it is an interesting situation there, since they are under China's wing:

N. Korea seeks aid from China on nukes
By Bill Gertz
THE WASHINGTON TIMES


...North Korea is trying to buy a chemical from China used in the production of nuclear-weapons fuel that U.S. intelligence officials say is a sign the communist government in Pyongyang is continuing to secretly develop nuclear arms, The Washington Times has learned....

.... The TBP "will be used to turn spent [nuclear] fuel into weapons-grade uranium," the official said.
A CIA spokesman declined to comment.
The Chinese companies involved in the North Korean chemical deal were not identified. However, Chinese companies have been sanctioned by the Bush administration at least three times in the past year for similar weapons-related sales to Iran and Pakistan....

The CIA released an unclassified assessment of the North Korean nuclear-arms program last month.
The agency concluded that North Korea could build several plutonium bombs right away and add one bomb every year until 2005 if the Agreed Framework collapses. Beginning in 2005, North Korea could begin large-scale production of nuclear weapons — up to 50 bombs a year.

http://www.washtimes.com/national/20021209-32546824.htm

So.. according to our new preemptive stance and our pulling out of the anti ICBM treaties, shouldn't we attack them all? China, N. Korea, S. Korea? heck throw in there Russia for good measure.. Or.. why shouldn't they attack us?

I just hope cool heads prevail and we avoid some serious mesh out there and here at home.


Josh

 

[wild]

While Americans were dying in Vietnam and demonstrating in America, our hawkish President did neither. He went AWOL!
By Frederick Sweet


Amid a constant beating of the war drums at The White House, President George W. Bush has been urging everyone to join him in a regime changing invasion of Iraq to eliminate Saddam Hussein. Americans are still waiting for Bush to make a convincing case while he questions everyone's patriotism who hesitates to pick up a weapon and head to the Middle East just because he says so.

This Commander-in-chief talks tough as he plans to send other people's children off to fight in a bloody war with Iraq. But what was Bush's military deportment in uniform at the height of the war in Vietnam?

Lt. George W. Bush's October 1, 1973 discharge papers from the Texas Air National Guard reveal that, although under the Guard rules he had originally signed up for six years of service obligation, this fighter jet pilot had only "completed 5 years, 4 months, and 5 days toward this obligation.…" Signed by his commanding officer Major Rufus Martin, Bush's discharge papers also note that at the time of his discharge he was "not available for [his ] signature."

Twenty-seven years later, in a Boston Globe interview with Medal of Honor winner, Senator Bob Kerrey (D-Nebraska), he expressed disgust at the newspaper's findings that George W. Bush had sidestepped National Guard duty for several months between 1972 and 1973. Bush was safely tucked away in Texas, and Kerrey had been fighting in Vietnam. A riled up Kerrey said this lapse amounts to Bush being AWOL -- absent without leave.

''It upsets me,'' Kerrey said in the interview, ''when someone says, `Vote for me, I was in the military,' when in fact he got into the military in order to avoid serving in the military, to avoid service that might have taken him into the war. And then he didn't even show up for duty.''

Today, National Guard soldiers could be sent to Iraq if Congress authorizes Bush's war. They say goodbye to their families and turn their lives upside down when they are sent overseas. Yet, when Bush made his six-year commitment to the Guard, he knew that he'd never be shipped overseas to fight in Vietnam. But that wasn't good enough for George W. Bush. The records show that between June 1972 and October 1973 he didn't even bother to show up for Guard duty in Texas or Alabama. At best he was AWOL.

...

full text at http://vaiw.org/vet/modules.php?op=modload&name=News&file=article&sid=3&mode=thread&order=0&thold=0

 

[wild]

different countries ... different "leaders" :

Gerhard Schroeder (German Federal Chancellor)

Gerhard Schroeder was born on April 7, 1944 to an impoverished Protestant family in Mossenburg, a town in the northern German state of Lower Saxony. He never knew his father, who died in battle in World War II. He and his four siblings were raised by his mother, who worked as a cleaning woman. Schroeder left school at age 14 to take an apprentice sales position. He later took classes at Goettingen University, where he earned a law degree in 1976. Early in his career as a lawyer, Schroeder became active in the Social Democratic Party (SPD). He was named to head the SPD's youth wing, the Young Socialists, in 1978. He was first elected to the Bundestag, Germany's lower house of parliament, in 1980.

http://globalization.about.com/gi/dynamic/offsite.htm?site=http://www.facts.com/wnd/gerhard.htm


Joschka Fischer (German Foreign Minister)

Joschka Fischer (legal name Joseph) was born in Baden-Württemberg on April 12, 1948. His father was a small town butcher. Fischer broke off formal education after the 10th grade. At age 19 he married his first wife and the couple moved to Frankfurt. Before entering politics he worked as a painter, a taxi driver and a book dealer. Like many young people in the late 60s and 70s he was alienated, developed a fascination with Marxism and was involved in demonstrations against the "establishment". He became a member of the young Green Party in 1982. (The Green Party had been founded two years earlier.) Political activity allowed the leadership abilities of the young man to flourish. He rose rapidly in the party and in 1983 became a member of the German Parliament (Bundestag).

http://webcampus3.stthomas.edu/paschons/language_http/essays/fischer.html


regards

wild

 

[rs7]

Quote from wild:

different countries ... different "leaders" :

Some leaders work their way into the system. Some buy their way in. Some are born into it. Some are both born into it and buy into it as well (a little insurance never hurts).

The fact that Dubya is a result of the last scenario is not enough to dismiss him as an unqualified leader. He is not the first "American Aristocrat" anointed to the office. (though he may have been the first President ever appointed...a whole different argument).

Even in my short (ok, it's all relative) lifetime we have had a Truman and a Nixon.....as well as a Kennedy and a couple of Bush's. There seems little relationship between how one gets there to how one does the job.

It would seem silly to pre-judge a candidate based on their luck in the gene pool.

Sure, a guy that struggled to get to the top has shown much fortitude and ambition. But an argument could be made that someone like a Kennedy or a Bush (Senior) can be more interested in serving their nation than in aspiring to power. And certainly they aren't in it for the money. I don't believe any modern president benefited financially from the office (except for Nixon, but he is so special, well, let's leave him out of it all. He is the exception that proves the rule). There is no right or wrong background.

Lot's of Clinton haters and lovers. Lot's of Nixon haters (and maybe some lovers, or at least a few "admirers"). Their backgrounds are not totally dissimilar. Lot's of Kennedy and Bush haters. JFK and George Sr. were not that dissimilar in background. (Dubya, obviously a different story). Think about the disparity of our more recent Presidents. Truman and Bush Sr. could not have come from more different places. Carter and Nixon, again, nothing in common. Eisenhower and Dubya? Almost causes spontaneous laughter. Reagan and Johnson? Ford? Where did he fit in? And the candidates that were put up and lost: Humphrey and Goldwater and Dukakis and Mondale. Stevenson and Dole. Let's not forget Wallace! Any common threads among these guys? They all demonstrated an ability to lead. But their backgrounds; financial, political, professional and social were all very different.

I think it is great that the old saying is really true. Anyone can grow up to be President of the US. We have proven this.

It is also true to a great degree that the office makes the man. Was Roosevelt (FDR) a great leader? Or was he in the right place at the right time. (or vice-verse?). This will be argued forever. But no doubt the man was elected during a crisis and presided during a time of even greater crisis. Now we have Dubya in a similar circumstance. Let's hope he rises to the occasion. Only in time will we really be able to judge. And even then, far into the future, the arguments will likely continue.

I think the biggest flaw in our electoral process is the re-election process. Seems like each President spends too much time in the first four years worrying about securing the second four. Maybe a single six year term would serve to keep each new President focused on the job the whole time. Elect me president, and I will make that the law of the land. Then I will resign and hand the reigns to my VP, who I will make sure is qualified to be president (Tampa comes to mind). I know I am not. I would just like to accomplish that one thing and step down.

I know I can count on votes form Aphie and Gordon. So that's a start. MrSub's vote can be bought cheap. Stu would vote for me just so he could enjoy my press conferences and State of the Union address, which I would promise, as a part of my official platform to run, to be funny. So all I need is about another 50 million votes and I am in. If I can get Max on board as my press agent, and Tbolt and Traderfut to be my liaisons to those that would ordinarily prefer my death to my election, I would have it easily made. And of course, I would need Daniel M to stuff some absentee ballots. And Darkhorse to write my speeches (and of course prepare me for any debates). And Fasterpussycat to be my chief of staff and main policy advisor, I can't see losing. Optional777 would be the key though. If I can get him to produce my campaign commercials, I would be the victor in the greatest landslide since Saddam's last election.

Or, I can open a kosher sushi bar. Which is very much like running for president. Find a position I can do the greatest good for the most people, and in which I would feel I was making a great contribution to mankind. All the same. Serve my country, serve raw fish. We all should strive to serve in our own way.

Peace,
rs7

 

[rs7]

Regarding my previous post......since trading hasn't been treating me exceptionally well for the past few months (round it off to a year), and careful further consideration, I hereby make it official. I will throw my hat into the ring!

Now I fully expect all of you to back me. The platform I will run on is open to some tweaking. So suggestions are welcome.

Main thrust though will remain single terms of 6 years for Presidents.

I will keep "states rights" (but limit them to determining if a parking meter gives you one hour or two for a quarter).

I will repeal the PDT rules. And I will give Washington and Lincoln back their real birthdays. Columbus too if enough people care.

Thank you my fellow Americans! And GO J.E.T.S. JETS!!!!

Peace,
rs7

 

[max401]

Quote from rs7:

Regarding my previous post......since trading hasn't been treating me exceptionally well for the past few months (round it off to a year), and careful further consideration, I hereby make it official. I will throw my hat into the ring!

Now I fully expect all of you to back me. The platform I will run on is open to some tweaking. So suggestions are welcome.

Main thrust though will remain single terms of 6 years for Presidents.

I will keep "states rights" (but limit them to determining if a parking meter gives you one hour or two for a quarter).

I will repeal the PDT rules. And I will give Washington and Lincoln back their real birthdays. Columbus too if enough people care.

Thank you my fellow Americans! And GO J.E.T.S. JETS!!!!

Peace,
rs7

Well, one must remember, RS7, when choosing public service, combat records are closely scrutinized. And if you end up having to take a cabinet post, do be nice to the gentlemen in the confirmation hearings. No compilations are allowed; we don't want another Boorda on our hands.

 

[Babak]

Gentlemen, please keep discussion in this thread on topic and avoid digressions into unrelated areas. Thank you.