NRA Hijinks

[futurecurrents]

You've tried this argument before, in this very thread. Did Australia and Great Britain have an estimated 4 to 5 million illegal guns on the street?

The legal guns aren't the problem, chief. You can get those pretty easily. It's the illegal ones that cause the issues - and most of the crime.

Ricter (to his credit) was the only one who took a trial run through the banning process. He ran into a lot of difficulty, but he at least tried to take a stab at it when you backed out. Read the first 10 pages for a refresher course.

No, the legal guns cause most of the true tragedies. Gang member deaths don't count as tragedies. We've been through this already.

Sandy Hook, Columbine, Aurora, this recent one in NC. Nearly all the gun deaths I've posted, all done with legally obtained firearms.

 

[Tsing Tao]

No, the legal guns cause most of the true tragedies. Gang member deaths don't count as tragedies. We've been through this already.

We have? Where?

Innocents killed in crime related robberies or gang activity are just as tragic as suicides, etc.

Sandy Hook, Columbine, Aurora, this recent one in NC. Nearly all the gun deaths I've posted, all done with legally obtained firearms.

The person who committed the atrocity at Sandy Hook did not own that firearm. He stole it from the rightful owner. And I must have missed the details behind the legality of the firearms in the links you posted. Could you be so kind as to relink to where it said they were all legally obtained?

Lastly, the vast number of murders committed by firearms in this country are done with illegally obtained firearms.

93% of guns used in crimes are obtained illegally (i.e., not at gun stores or gun shows).
-BATF, 1999 ↩

Only 0.7% of convicts bought their firearms at gun shows. 39.2% obtained them from illegal street dealers.
-Firearm Use by Offenders, Bureau of Justice Statistics, February 2002

 

[Tsing Tao]

Suicide

Gun bans result in lower gun suicide rates, but a compensatory increase in suicide from other accessible and lethal means of suicide (hanging, leaping, auto exhaust, etc.). The net result of gun bans? No reduction in total suicide rates. [3] People who are intent in killing themselves find the means to do so. Are other means of suicide so much more politically correct that we should focus on measures that decrease gun suicide, but do nothing to reduce total suicide deaths?
[3] Kleck G. Point Blank: Guns and Violence in America. New York: Aldine de Gruyter. 1991

 

[WeToddDid2]

“It’s controversial, but first thing is all of your — 95 percent of your murders and murderers, and murder victims fit one M.O. You can just take the description, Xerox it, and pass it out to all of the cops. They are male, minorities, 15 to 25. That’s true in New York, it’s true in virtually every city in America,” Bloomberg is heard saying in the newly released audio.

http://www.liveleak.com/

 

[futurecurrents]

We have? Where?

Innocents killed in crime related robberies or gang activity are just as tragic as suicides, etc.



The person who committed the atrocity at Sandy Hook did not own that firearm. He stole it from the rightful owner. And I must have missed the details behind the legality of the firearms in the links you posted. Could you be so kind as to relink to where it said they were all legally obtained?

Lastly, the vast number of murders committed by firearms in this country are done with illegally obtained firearms.

93% of guns used in crimes are obtained illegally (i.e., not at gun stores or gun shows).
-BATF, 1999 ↩

Only 0.7% of convicts bought their firearms at gun shows. 39.2% obtained them from illegal street dealers.
-Firearm Use by Offenders, Bureau of Justice Statistics, February 2002

But those illegal guns are killing thugs not innocent children like at Sandy Hook. The truly tragic killings are done with regular old legal guns. You seem to miss this essential point behind a wall of meaningless stats. And crimes are not killings so your crime stat is irrelevant. Try better next time.

 

[futurecurrents]

Suicide

Gun bans result in lower gun suicide rates, but a compensatory increase in suicide from other accessible and lethal means of suicide (hanging, leaping, auto exhaust, etc.). The net result of gun bans? No reduction in total suicide rates. [3] People who are intent in killing themselves find the means to do so. Are other means of suicide so much more politically correct that we should focus on measures that decrease gun suicide, but do nothing to reduce total suicide deaths?
[3] Kleck G. Point Blank: Guns and Violence in America. New York: Aldine de Gruyter. 1991

It's been proven that owning a gun raises the probability of the owner dying from guns.


FBI data reveal that about twice as many homicides result from arguments than from felonies, and gang violence is only a small contributor. In a careful study of the relationships between homicide victims and perpetrators, analyzing data from 1981–2010, Michael Siegel and his colleagues reveal that for every 1 percent increase in gun ownership, there is a 0.9 percent increase in nonstranger homicide. Although stranger homicide does increase slightly as gun ownership rises, the increase is not statistically significant. This indicates that there is no deterrence effect from firearm ownership and that a firearm significantly increases the owner’s chances of killing or being killed by somebody he or she knows.

 

[Tsing Tao]

But those illegal guns are killing thugs not innocent children like at Sandy Hook. The truly tragic killings are done with regular old legal guns. You seem to miss this essential point behind a wall of meaningless stats. And crimes are not killings so your crime stat is irrelevant. Try better next time.

So you're telling me that gang bangers don't kill innocent bystanders? Would you like some links?

Try harder next time (not better).

Links:

https://www.google.com/?gws_rd=ssl#q=innocent bystanders killed in chicago

Babies shot, children shot, people going to work, etc. All by gang related activity. Hundreds of examples. And that's just Chicago. Have fun reading.

Or perhaps these aren't as tragic because they don't fit in your narrative?

 

[Tsing Tao]

It's been proven that owning a gun raises the probability of the owner dying from guns.

WOW! Holy cow, Batman, stop the presses! And a person who drives to work is more likely to die in an auto accident than someone who walks to work! Go figure!

FBI data reveal that about twice as many homicides result from arguments than from felonies, and gang violence is only a small contributor. In a careful study of the relationships between homicide victims and perpetrators, analyzing data from 1981–2010, Michael Siegel and his colleagues reveal that for every 1 percent increase in gun ownership, there is a 0.9 percent increase in nonstranger homicide. Although stranger homicide does increase slightly as gun ownership rises, the increase is not statistically significant. This indicates that there is no deterrence effect from firearm ownership and that a firearm significantly increases the owner’s chances of killing or being killed by somebody he or she knows.

Non-stranger homicide? Now I've heard everything.

Please show statistics between those who own guns legally and those who do not own them legally - because THAT is the only argument here. No one disputes that if you own a firearm, you have a slightly higher chance of dying by a firearm. No one disputes that guns are used in atrocious crimes. I keep asking you "what time it is" and you keep trying to tell me how to build a clock.

How would you get illegal guns off the street??

 

[futurecurrents]

A smattering of incidents involving America's nutty gun culture over the past few days: A woman was shot and killed yesterday in Houston, TX, before the gunman shot and wounded himself (link). A woman was shot and killed on Tuesday in Pico Rivera, CA, before the gunman shot and killed himself (link). A police officer employed by the school system in Lake Ariel, PA, discharged his gun in his office inadvertently yesterday, fortunately no one was injured (link). Two people were shot and killed in New Orleans, LA, last night (link). Yesterday, police revealed details about the January 1 death of a woman in Michigan who died after shooting herself in the head while adjusting her bra holster (link). Two people were shot and killed and another was shot and wounded yesterday in Indianapolis (link).

As far as we know, they were all legal guns.

 

[WeToddDid2]

A smattering of incidents involving America's nutty gun culture over the past few days: A woman was shot and killed yesterday in Houston, TX, before the gunman shot and wounded himself (link). A woman was shot and killed on Tuesday in Pico Rivera, CA, before the gunman shot and killed himself (link). A police officer employed by the school system in Lake Ariel, PA, discharged his gun in his office inadvertently yesterday, fortunately no one was injured (link). Two people were shot and killed in New Orleans, LA, last night (link). Yesterday, police revealed details about the January 1 death of a woman in Michigan who died after shooting herself in the head while adjusting her bra holster (link). Two people were shot and killed and another was shot and wounded yesterday in Indianapolis (link).

As far as we know, they were all legal guns.

"95 percent of your murders and murderers, and murder victims fit one M.O..........They are male, minorities, 15 to 25."