Not 97% but .3% of Climatologists agree.

Once again...


http://www.skepticalscience.com/climate-sensitivity.htm



In truth, nobody knows for sure quite how much the temperature will rise, but rise it will. Inaction or complacency heightens risk, gambling with the entire ecology of the planet, and the welfare of everyone on it.


http://www.skepticalscience.com/climate-sensitivity.htm

Which is what we have been saying.

It may even go down before it rises...and I agree complacency about pollution is wrong.

we should be conserving the planet for future generations...
just not transferring wealth via carbon credits and other crazy tax schemes.
 
Quote from Lucrum:

I imagine the properties are the same whether in a jar or a tube.
Now in a complex atmosphere of various temps and pressures....

How about when oxygen, nitrogen, dust and Water molecules are "around it"?


I'm trying not to laugh...oops...I did anyway.


Ummm, no. It does not matter what "is around it".

The physical property of the CO2 molecule remains the same.

It intercepts long wave radiation from singular directions and then re-radiates it in all directions.

The "all directions" part is an important concept also.


Okay so far?
 
Quote from futurecurrents:

Ummm, no. It does not matter what "is around it".

The physical property of the CO2 molecule remains the same.

It intercepts long wave radiation from singular directions and then re-radiates it in all directions.

The "all directions" part is an important concept also.


Okay so far?
Oh I'm OK, I'm just unconvinced of AGW and the need for carbon tax schemes.


"The carbon dioxide which is present in the atmosphere is produced by respiration and by combustion. However, it has a short residence time in this phase as it is both consumed by plants during photosynthesis."

http://www.ucc.ie/academic/chem/dolchem/html/comp/co2.html

Carbon dioxide is a colourless odourless gas, which is soluble in water, in ethanol and in acetone.

Carbon dioxide is an acidic oxide and reacts with water to give carbonic acid.

CO2 + H2O ==> H2CO3

Carbon dioxide reacts with alkalis to give carbonates and bicarbonates.


CO2 + NaOH ==> NaHCO3
Sodium
BiCarbonate

NaHCO3 + NaOH ==> Na2CO3 + H2O
Sodium
Carbonate



Apparently it does matter what other molecules are "around it".
 
A. Nitrogen - 78% - Dilutes oxygen and prevents rapid burning at the earth's surface. Living things need it to make proteins. Nitrogen cannot be used directly from the air. The Nitrogen Cycle is nature's way of supplying the needed nitrogen for living things.

B. Oxygen - 21% - Used by all living things. Essential for respiration. It is necessary for combustion or burning.

C. Argon - 0.9% - Used in light bulbs.

D. Carbon Dioxide - 0.03% - Plants use it to make oxygen. Acts as a blanket and prevents the escape of heat into outer space. Scientists are afraid that the burning of fossil fuels such as coal and oil are adding more carbon dioxide to the atmosphere.

E. Water Vapor - 0.0 to 4.0% - Essential for life processes. Also prevents heat loss from the earth.
 
Quote from Lucrum:

Oh I'm OK, I'm just unconvinced of AGW and the need for carbon tax schemes.


"The carbon dioxide which is present in the atmosphere is produced by respiration and by combustion. However, it has a short residence time in this phase as it is both consumed by plants during photosynthesis."

http://www.ucc.ie/academic/chem/dolchem/html/comp/co2.html

Carbon dioxide is a colourless odourless gas, which is soluble in water, in ethanol and in acetone.

Carbon dioxide is an acidic oxide and reacts with water to give carbonic acid.

CO2 + H2O ==> H2CO3

Carbon dioxide reacts with alkalis to give carbonates and bicarbonates.


CO2 + NaOH ==> NaHCO3
Sodium
BiCarbonate

NaHCO3 + NaOH ==> Na2CO3 + H2O
Sodium
Carbonate



Apparently it does matter what other molecules are "around it".

We are not talking about taxes. Try to concentrate.

We are talking about the CO2 that has not formed baking soda. CO2 in the atmosphere is not baking soda. It is free CO2. If it wasn't, it would not be CO2.

And CO2 has certain properties with regard to long wave radiation. It absorbs it and then re-radiates it in all directions. This is basic, proven scientific fact.

Okay?
 
Quote from futurecurrents:

All right. Maybe Republicans are offended by having to listen to ten year old kids tell them stuff.

So here. Check it out. It's pretty cool. Really.


<iframe width="420" height="315" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/SeYfl45X1wo" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Actually, that's only part of the story, the less important part relative to what we call the greenhouse effect. I didn't intend to get into this here as many would have trouble understanding it, but I guess I'll make an attempt, particularly because jem has been so confused by that NASA (or was it NOAA) article re CO2 cooling effect.

The demonstration in the video is showing you that CO2 absorbs infra red radiation. (It also coincidentally demonstrates that the guys detector is tuned or filtered so that it is not an extremely broad band IR detector, nor can it detect visible emr.

There are two separate properties of CO2 to consider. The first is its ability to absorb and re-radiate a portion of the ir, emr spectrum. The second property is the transparency of CO2 to the entire visable spectrum, some of the uv spectrum, and some of the IR spectrum.

First the IR absorption properties of CO2. (This is where "jems cooling effect" comes from with regard to CO2 in the outer atmosphere.) CO2 has a simple IR band structure. It has two stretching modes, symmetrical and asymmetrical. Only the asymmetrical leads to absorbtion in the ir region. When an infrared photon, of energy corresponding to an energy encompassed by the ir absorption band of a CO2 molecule, strikes a molecule there is a non-zero probability that it will be "absorbed"; hence the molecule's asymmetrical stretching vibration will undergo a transition to a higher energy state and then spontaneously relax to its ground state by emitting an infrared photon.

A collection of these molecules will emit in all directions, hence molecule in the outer atmosphere will emit some of the absorbed ir back toward outer space and some will be emitted toward Earth where they will eventually strike another molecule and the absorption-emission will be repeated.

If you think of the atmosphere as composed of layers like an onion, you will see that each subsequent layer moving toward earth is exposed to less and less ir so that eventually that portion of the ir spectrum radiated by the sun and absorbed by CO2 is mostly absorbed before it reaches the Earths surface.

But the sun radiates ir over a very broad spectral region, so that ir that is not absorbed by the atmosphere does reach the Earths surface, and we feel that as heat. (the same phenomenon occurs with the other greenhouse gases such as water and methane, but they have more ir active modes of vibration and are hence somewhat better ir absorbers. (Note also that these same gasses also have reflective properties since not all photons will have the correct phase to be absorbed, even if they have the correct energy.)

Now, this is the important point. The phenomenon I have just describes is NOT the greenhouse effect and does not cause the greenhouse effect. In fact what I have just described has somewhat of a cooling effect, because just as the CO2 in the video shielded the detector from the candles heat, the CO2 in our atmosphere, partially shields the Earths surface from direct ir radiation from the sun, but only partially. When you walk outside on a sunny day you are playing the role of the detector in the video experiment, and the sun is playing the role of the candle. You get warm, but not nearly so warm as you would were the atmosphere not there.

I will explain the green house effect in a subsequent post. This requires that the greenhouse gas be transparent (non-absorbing) to part of the solar spectrum and opaque to another lower energy part.
 
Now the Greenhouse Effect. (I'm sorry I started this) the atmosphere is largely transparent to the visible region of the emr spectrum emitted by the sun, and partially transparent to the ultraviolet emissions. (Most of the very short wavelength uv is absorbed by the ozone in the stratosphere.) Both uv and visible photons have enough energy to cause not only vibrational transitions in molecules, but also electronic transitions.

In complex molecules, such as the ones comprising the Earths surface, there are many possible electronic energy state transitions, and for each electronic state there are many vibrational states. The uv, visible and ir photons not absorbed by the atmosphere strike the Earths surface. The uv and visible photons cause electronic state transitions in the materials they strike, whereas the ir photons cause vibrational transitions. Materials that have undergone an electronic transition from the ground state to a higher electronic state will, in almost every case, be able to relax back down to the lowest vibrational state of the ground electronic state by undergoing successive vibrational transitions to consecutively lower vibrational energy states. As they do this, they will emit their excess energy as ir photons. In other words, visible and uv light is absorbed, and via quantitized vibrational relaxation, the uv and visible photons are transformed into lower energy ir photons and emitted. Absorbed ir photons have too little energy to result in electronic state transitions, so they are emitted back as lower energy ir photons.

Through the mechanism just described, all of the non-reflected, absorbed photons from the sun, with energy equal to or greater than the lowest available vibrational state transition, are emitted back as low quality ir photons.

In the outer troposphere there is no conversion of visible light to ir and very little conversion of uv. In contrast, the Earth's surface is an absorber of both uv and visible light, and the absorbed visible and uv reappears as ir emissions from the Earth's surface. These ir emissions are then absorbed by atmospheric gases and emitted back in all directions, some back toward Earth and some into the lower layers of the atmosphere, slowing the cooling of the Earths surface and warming the lower atmosphere.

THIS is the "Greenhouse Effect", we may summarize it as the conversion of high quality uv and visible quanta to heat and the trapping of this heat in the lower atmosphere by atmospheric absorption. In this model, one may think of ir photons as heat. The important distinction here between what occurs in the outer atmosphere and what occurs at the Earth's surface is due to the absence of an efficient uv and visible photon absorber in the outer atmosphere. We only have that at the Earth's surface.
 
....interesting!!! on one hand......futurecurrents has expressed that the reason for his militant and excessive fanaticism for AGW is based on his legitimate concerns for the future and wellbeing of mankind.

......on the other..... when asked why he continues to inquire...."Do you have a garage?"

Quote from futurecurrents:
..... It would make it easier for him to kill himself and improve the world for future generations. He just need turn his car on and go to sleep."

....so anyone who disagrees with him should commit suicide utilizing the burning of fossil fuels.

Yet Chicken Little just can't understand with his ceaseless rants about "the sky is falling" why few if any listen.
 
Quote from stoic:

....interesting!!! on one hand......futurecurrents has expressed that the reason for his militant and excessive fanaticism for AGW is based on his legitimate concerns for the future and well being of mankind.

......on the other..... when asked why he continues to inquire...."Do you have a garage?"



....so anyone who disagrees with him should commit suicide utilizing the burning of fossil fuels.

Yet Chicken Little just can't understand with his ceaseless rants about "the sky is falling" why few if any listen.
:D

The hypocrisy of the left knows no bounds.
 
Quote from futurecurrents:

...CO2 has certain properties with regard to long wave radiation. It absorbs it and then re-radiates it in all directions. This is basic, proven scientific fact.

Okay?
1) Where does the long wave radiation originate from?
2) Does C02 amplify (increase) the long wave radiation or mere redirect it?
 
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