Niederhoffer In Trouble..... Again !!

[thoreau777]

Quote from asiaprop:

wealth over time? LOL, please do not make me laugh hysterically. Last picture I have seen of VN was standing next to his silver collection right before it was auctioned off at fractions of its appraised value....

asiaprop,

Your wit is matched only by your lack of charm. You are spreading deceit. Where was this elusive picture you reference? Sure it is true that a few of Victor's silver pieces were sold for charity, but he did not really need the money. Those are more rumors spread by knuckle dragging troglodytes.

Very truly yours,
T

 

[Pekelo]

Quote from thoreau777:

....they were able to force me out

HIM.

FTFY

Seriously Mr. Niederhoffer, we can recognize a world class squash player from 5 miles even with backwind.

 

[RedDuke]

Hi Victor,

Thanks a lot for clarifying these things. I always knew there was way more than just shorting puts, too many high caliber people were invested.

It is so much easier to bash others and claim that they can trade successfully, than actually trade. And there is so much of such bs here unfortunately.

Best of luck in your current and future endevours.

Regards,
redduke

Quote from thoreau777:

I will be very brief here. Please allow me a few very succinct words. I am somewhat familiar with this matter. Victor and his team has netted millions upon millions for his investors net of all fees across all funds over his investing career. I was alerted to this website from several contributors www.dailyspeculations.com and feel that Victor should be vindicated. However, I sense that the forthcoming few words would be wasted.

Victor does not purely sell OTM puts recklessly without hedging. I have no idea how this ridiculous rumor got started. Do you think the likes of George Soros and Morgan Stanley would invest and then extend unsecured lines of credit into the tens of millions of dollars to an unproven trading strategy with a novice? How can I put this matter to rest? Victor and his team has their brains everywhere and in most all financial instruments, not just OTM puts.

Also, where is the rumor that Victor completely "blew up" over and over? That is completely false. Utterly untrue. It is true that heavy losses were sustained in a few years out of over 40+ years of very consistent outrageous gains. Investors did not completely "lose their shirt" during the few rather unfortunate years. And who did NOT suffer during the years that Victor had his challenges? It is true Victor suffered heavy losses, but consider LTCM's complete blow up. Even George Soros had to close his Quantum Fund due to heavy losses as well. Other famed hedge fund managers like Richard Dennis, Larry Williams, and Jimmy Rogers endured similar lean years. Yes, some of Victor's funds were closed, but this was no different than other comparable hedge funds during that time period.

The difference was that Victor's funds had a much more consistent track record of superior gains for a far longer period. Can anyone here that must feel some need to criticize Victor produce a comparable sterling record? How dare you all.

It is well documented that Victor's well publicized rather difficult period in 1997 was caused by several financial institutions that conspired to "lynch" him together, as well as the market forces that eventually brought the Russian markets and the Asian markets to its knees. I still think that the crash of Oct. 27, 1997, was basically due to brokers running Victor's positions against him, knowing that he was on the ropes. The market had its greatest drop in the previous 10 years that day. And then the next day, once they were able to force me out, they rallied the markets.

The other difficult periods like in September 11th 2001 found its Aurora in unprecedented events that really cannot easily be mitigated with insurance.

I challenge any of the loathsome naysayers to even come close to replicating Victor's P/L over any rolling ten year period (which was a real time audited record). Sure there were difficult years... just a few to be fair to him. And when he faltered, even the likes of Goldman Sachs and Morgan Stanley and AIG and Lehman Brothers suffered concomittantly.

I present the evidence as directly as possible. I am about to give up endeavoring to alleviate complete and utter moronic drivel. Albert Einstein once wrote, "There are only two things possibly infinite: the universe and a man's stupidity, and I am not as altogether sure of the former, as I am of the latter".

 

[zdreg]

Quote from thoreau777:

I will be very brief here. Please allow me a few very succinct words. I am somewhat familiar with this matter. Victor and his team has netted millions upon millions for his investors net of all fees across all funds over his investing career. I was alerted to this website from several contributors www.dailyspeculations.com and feel that Victor should be vindicated. However, I sense that the forthcoming few words would be wasted.

Victor does not purely sell OTM puts recklessly without hedging. I have no idea how this ridiculous rumor got started. Do you think the likes of George Soros and Morgan Stanley would invest and then extend unsecured lines of credit into the tens of millions of dollars to an unproven trading strategy with a novice? How can I put this matter to rest? Victor and his team has their brains everywhere and in most all financial instruments, not just OTM puts.

Also, where is the rumor that Victor completely "blew up" over and over? That is completely false. Utterly untrue. It is true that heavy losses were sustained in a few years out of over 40+ years of very consistent outrageous gains. Investors did not completely "lose their shirt" during the few rather unfortunate years. And who did NOT suffer during the years that Victor had his challenges? It is true Victor suffered heavy losses, but consider LTCM's complete blow up. Even George Soros had to close his Quantum Fund due to heavy losses as well. Other famed hedge fund managers like Richard Dennis, Larry Williams, and Jimmy Rogers endured similar lean years. Yes, some of Victor's funds were closed, but this was no different than other comparable hedge funds during that time period.

The difference was that Victor's funds had a much more consistent track record of superior gains for a far longer period. Can anyone here that must feel some need to criticize Victor produce a comparable sterling record? How dare you all.

It is well documented that Victor's well publicized rather difficult period in 1997 was caused by several financial institutions that conspired to "lynch" him together, as well as the market forces that eventually brought the Russian markets and the Asian markets to its knees. I still think that the crash of Oct. 27, 1997, was basically due to brokers running Victor's positions against him, knowing that he was on the ropes. The market had its greatest drop in the previous 10 years that day. And then the next day, once they were able to force me out, they rallied the markets.

The other difficult periods like in September 11th 2001 found its Aurora in unprecedented events that really cannot easily be mitigated with insurance.

I challenge any of the loathsome naysayers to even come close to replicating Victor's P/L over any rolling ten year period (which was a real time audited record). Sure there were difficult years... just a few to be fair to him. And when he faltered, even the likes of Goldman Sachs and Morgan Stanley and AIG and Lehman Brothers suffered concomittantly.

I present the evidence as directly as possible. I am about to give up endeavoring to alleviate complete and utter moronic drivel. Albert Einstein once wrote, "There are only two things possibly infinite: the universe and a man's stupidity, and I am not as altogether sure of the former, as I am of the latter".

you have provided alot of verbiage. you have not provided any numbers to show proof that victor's performance over time has not been anything but mediocre at best.

 

[Wayne Gibbous]

Assuming that VN really posts here (not just a daily spec spoofer) I hope he realizes this thread was started by none other than that fawning financial groupie and failed trader, DG (surfer). And as a matter of fact, most "Bash Niederhoffer" threads here seem to be started by that same many-time-banned fellow.

Vic might want to look inside his circle of "friends" and see which are really friends...

Good trading to all.

 

[Gabfly1]

Quote from thoreau777:

Gabfly1,

That was an ignorant comment don't you think? It greatly oversimplifies Victor's trading algorithms. Your assaults against Victor continue like salt rubbed into an open sore. But why? I am a mature man now.

As I continue to read and peruse your comments, I am starting to seethe with a starting scintilla of rage.

I am beginning to think your "sense of humor" and unfettered vitriol hurdled at a champion money manager manifests your own insecurities and inadequacies in your own trading prowess?

You must have gone through a very difficult period in your life recently. No one can exhort that which you do if they do not have misery in their heart. Nothing can come from the outside, which is not in existence on the inside.

Victor just celebrated the fourth birthday of his son, Aubrey. He is a happy man, and does not to be labored as such. I ask you to read the book, "Meditations" by Marcus Aurelius to gain a deeper sense of peace within yourself.

T

Here's the thing, Vic. May I call you Vic? I read both of your books. I did not like them, but I realize that's just a matter of opinion. Even so, I found you to be rather arrogant and self-aggrandizing. Those are not endearing qualities. You consider yourself to be the greatest speculator of your time and yet, like LoBagola's elephants, you seemed to repeatedly take the same path (leading to the same hole). The irony is that you refer to LoBagola's elephants in one of your books. Yes, I can understand your upset over the reference.

Yes, we are all human and we make mistakes. Sometimes repeatedly. Perhaps if you regarded yourself as something rather less than a deity, your critics would be more forgiving.

As for your turning the tables on me, let me be the first to say that I know full well I will not reach the heights you had achieved during the course of your trading career. Regardless, I have a deep and abiding respect for people who do well in their chosen field, whatever that field may be. However, unbridled arrogance is the mustard stain on an otherwise flawless garment. And we can surely both agree that the garment was not exactly flawless to begin with.

Please don't misunderstand me. I don't wish you ill. I actually wish you well. Along with a modicum of humility.

 

[Gabfly1]

Quote from thoreau777:

...Even George Soros had to close his Quantum Fund due to heavy losses as well. Other famed hedge fund managers like Richard Dennis, Larry Williams...

You realize, of course, that your credibility falters when you associate Williams with real traders, right?

 

[asiaprop]

I cannot wait to hear the news how some idiots funded him once again only to wait for the next blow up. I am a seasoned trader myself and if anything in life is given then its that someone who blew up several times, especially running others' funds, is almost guaranteed to do so again. VN has already secured his seat in the wannabe but ultimate loser gallery, nothing that he can do about. Wannabe in the sense that his book(s) suggest(s) he counts himself among the elite of traders/investors which he clearly does not belong.

Quote from thoreau777:

Victor has not "closed his doors".

 

[asiaprop]

This is too funny... are you hiding behind some stupid synonym instead of openly stating that you are VN? Why do you speak of VN in the third person and then you apparently still have not overcome your 1997 losses, where you blame evil banks and market makers and in the end you speak in the first person "they were able to force ME out...". Have you handled your clients funds with the same lack of care that you employ posting here? In any case you do not sound too mentally stable each time the topic shifts to 1997. Ouch, must be still hurting a lot...

Quote from thoreau777:

...I still think that the crash of Oct. 27, 1997, was basically due to brokers running Victor's positions against him, knowing that he was on the ropes. The market had its greatest drop in the previous 10 years that day. And then the next day, once they were able to force me out, they rallied the markets.

 

[Pekelo]

Let me ask respectfully all the erudite and experienced posters about this investing problem, let's call it the black box/white box paradox:

Quote from thoreau777:
does not purely sell OTM puts recklessly without hedging.

Let's say I am an investor, and I am presented with 2 systems, and I like both systems and I am very interested in investing with one of them. But I can only pick ONE system for various reasons

The black box system was made by a bunch of math geniuses (or genii) with decades of trading/investing experiences. It uses a very complicated mathematical formula to make trades, with all kind of hedging involved. It is also somehow pricey, because of the brainpower and brand names involved.

The white box was made by an insurance salesman and it simply sells OTM puts. Because of the simplicity of the operation, it is rather cheap.

Now here is the kicker! The performances of both systems in the last 5 years (including all kind of market conditions) are nearly identical!

Again, I don't exactly know what is going on inside the boxes, I was just given a short explanation about how they operate and the last 5 years returns and performance charts, and those are pretty much the same. When one took a dive, so did the other. When one had an excellent year, the other had one too, with similar returns....

How do I decide which system to invest with? Again, I want to use one of them, but I can only chose one....