many religious meat eaters don't care about killing animals

Quote from -EntropyTrader:



HYPOCRITE!!!

Yeah, but you see the hypocrisy flows both ways.

Being anti-animal torture, and pro-choice

Being pro-life, and pro animal torture (not to mention pro death penalty too)

The difference is choice. The human lady chooses to abort her fetus. Ya think a female pig would choose to abort her fetus? (and if she does, would you want to stop her too?).
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Yes, she chooses to kill the unborn child.

Juast a meat-eater (usually indirectly) chooses to kill the lamb.


Call me insane, but I choose to value human life far and away more than I do animal life.

So really, this whole "animal torture" thing is hardly anything more than "sympathy play" or publicity stunt.
If you want to campaign against eating meat do it on health benefit grounds or environmental degradation grounds -- some of those are fair calls -- but the animal torture crap is as phony as you can get; forcing people to throw away an eons old cultural and social tradition -- eating meat -- on the whim of some 'enlightened' fringe radicals is ludicrous.

(I didn't mean to say that all vegetarians support abortion, but since the OP used a term like, "people like myself", I thought it was fair to point out that those people like himself -- liberals -- usually are anti-meat, pro-abortion.)
 
TM_Direct
Can we also have a tax of say...1000.00 on every abortion preformed? ...a punishment tax is what you are calling for or a sin tax as they say today.....What your proposing is just another in the socialist steps...what depletes resources more: a cattle farm or say....a fake fur factory???? or how about a tax on the # of times your flush your toilet in your house??? maybe the first 4 flushes are free per day, but its' a 1.50 per flush after that????
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First of all you’re the freaking socialist bitch thinking that everyone should subsidize the negative-externality cost associated with your carcass-based diet.
And as far as the cost of your toilet flushes go, you ever heard of the ‘monthly water bill’ – do you even pay it or do want the rest of humanity to subsidize that too.
You’re allegiance to capitalism is more fake that your allegiance to Christ. But don’t worry, you’re going to hell where you will be fed three swine-carcass meals a day – fully subsidized by Satan himself to satisfy your socialist ass.

P.S. Do even think you can argue with me on any issue, I will totally destroy your argument; your ignorance is completely vulnerable once it leaves the safe harbor of your mind.




alfonso:
Juast a meat-eater (usually indirectly) chooses to kill the lamb.
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The lamb aint in yo BELLY…If you want to hack away at anything on the insides or outsides of your OWN body, then you’re a sadomachistic moron…BUT HEY, I’m not gonna get in between you and the machete.

Anyway, I’m through with this thread…it was originally about the hypocrisy of ‘religious’ people in their attempt to justify all manner of animal torture. Well that argument as been destroyed already. BTW I eat meat too (infrequently though) – but I don’t try to justify by saying something silly like “Well God created all animals exclusively for our tongues and bellies.”
 
Quote from jem:We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness

Under what line of thought do you think these ideas came from. If not the Judeo Christian line.

We can go through the history of the founding fathers or you can admit you are wrong. But to claim this is not a country founded on judeo christian ideals and concepts is claim that can only be made by a clouded mind. Who were the first settlers hindu's do you not know how powerful christianity was in the colonies, it may have been oppressive (for some) but it was the foundation of just about everything is this country.
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Jem,
endowed by "their Creator".. is ANY Creator.

You may choose to believe that your Creator is your Judeo christian God, to another man, his Creator may be a Quantum Flux.

Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness belong to humanity, they are not the possessions of a clergy or religious doctrine to hand out by their own whim or fancy.

The Founding Fathers were not theists. They were deists. In the Declaration of Independence they referred to "the Laws of Nature" and intentionally spoke of "Nature's God." When the Declaration was signed there were less than 10% of the people of the 13 Colonies who belonged to a church.

They particularly and very wisely steered clear of referring directly to any God of religion and especially any Judeo christian God.

For your information,
Thomas Jefferson remarked "I have examined all the known superstitions of the word, and I do not find in our particular superstition of Christianity one redeeming feature."

"The clergy converted the simple teachings of Jesus into an engine for enslaving mankind and adulterated by artificial constructions into a contrivance to filch wealth and power to themselves.

John Adams:"The doctrine of the divinity of Jesus is made a convenient cover for absurdity." Adams signed the Treaty of Peace and Friendship with Tripoli 1797 in which is stated in Article 11 for all to see..."The Government of the United States is not in any sense founded on the Christian religion."

These people, your ancestors, were escaping religious persecution and indoctrination. They had no desire to perpetuate the same nonsense and make such the foundation of the new land. They were absolutely certain that religion and State should NOT be mixed.

I am afraid it is you who is wrong. Go and do some homework on "our" country, but I suggest you try to study without your religious preconceptions fogging up the facts.

btw. I think it is you who appears to be becomming obsessed with the religious aspect here.
 
Quote from -EntropyTrader:



First of all you’re the freaking socialist bitch thinking that everyone should subsidize the negative-externality cost associated with your carcass-based diet.
And as far as the cost of your toilet flushes go, you ever heard of the ‘monthly water bill’ – do you even pay it or do want the rest of humanity to subsidize that too.
You’re allegiance to capitalism is more fake that your allegiance to Christ. But don’t worry, you’re going to hell where you will be fed three swine-carcass meals a day – fully subsidized by Satan himself to satisfy your socialist ass.

P.S. Do even think you can argue with me on any issue, I will totally destroy your argument; your ignorance is completely vulnerable once it leaves the safe harbor of your mind.


First of all , you have started calling me names ( bitch?) so....you lose the argument....Secondly, i never called you a socialist....I suggested a tax on people eating meat is a bit of socialist reach and i think you'd have to agree...Also, do you understand what sarcasm is? the tax per flush and abortion was meant to be a little tongue in cheek sarcasm to show the absurdity of taxing one particular social ill and not others...BTW, a water bill is not going to be more then 50.00...if you have running water...but im sure in your trailer home you just dug a hole in the back and use well water for free correct?....I thought that we were going to start from scratch after our past unpleasantness but you seem unwilling to put it behind you...much the same way your step daddy put it " behind you" in the back of your trailer home ( or as we like to say in the capitalist world, your bus with out wheels)....so just for verification you believe there is a hell???? how can you have a HELL unless you have religious conviction? Truthfully, i actually think there is no Hell, but you are entitieled to your religious beliefs. Glad to see you've become a religious man though



:D
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Quote from stu:



Jem,
endowed by "their Creator".. is ANY Creator.

You may choose to believe that your Creator is your Judeo christian God, to another man, his Creator may be a Quantum Flux.

Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness belong to humanity, they are not the possessions of a clergy or religious doctrine to hand out by their own whim or fancy.

The Founding Fathers were not theists. They were deists. In the Declaration of Independence they referred to "the Laws of Nature" and intentionally spoke of "Nature's God." When the Declaration was signed there were less than 10% of the people of the 13 Colonies who belonged to a church.

They particularly and very wisely steered clear of referring directly to any God of religion and especially any Judeo christian God.

For your information,
Thomas Jefferson remarked "I have examined all the known superstitions of the word, and I do not find in our particular superstition of Christianity one redeeming feature."

"The clergy converted the simple teachings of Jesus into an engine for enslaving mankind and adulterated by artificial constructions into a contrivance to filch wealth and power to themselves.

John Adams:"The doctrine of the divinity of Jesus is made a convenient cover for absurdity." Adams signed the Treaty of Peace and Friendship with Tripoli 1797 in which is stated in Article 11 for all to see..."The Government of the United States is not in any sense founded on the Christian religion."

These people, your ancestors, were escaping religious persecution and indoctrination. They had no desire to perpetuate the same nonsense and make such the foundation of the new land. They were absolutely certain that religion and State should NOT be mixed.

I am afraid it is you who is wrong. Go and do some homework on "our" country, but I suggest you try to study without your religious preconceptions fogging up the facts.

btw. I think it is you who appears to be becomming obsessed with the religious aspect here.
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stu, you rule, man. :cool:

ROCK
 
John Adams: "The highest glory of the American Revolution was this: it connected, in one indissoluble bond the principles of civil government with the principles of Christianity."

George Washington: "Of all the dispositions and habits which lead to political prosperity, religion and morality are indispensable supports."

Patrick Henry: "It cannot be emphasized too strongly or too often that this great nation was founded, not by religionists, but by Christians; not on religions, but on the gospel of Jesus Christ!"

James Madison: "(Americans) staked the future of all political institutions upon the capacity of each and all of us to govern ourselves, to control ourselves, to sustain ourselves according to the Ten Commandments of God."

Supreme Court Justice (and first Chief Justice) John Jay: "Providence has given to our people the choice of their rulers, and it is the duty ... of a Christian nation to select and prefer Christians for their rulers."

There are thousands of quotes like these. And there a few deists quotes.



Stu I read your deists argument and many others on the net. With respect to Jefferson you may be right but there are also facts and arguments against your potion. After reading what was in the net I was not aware of the incredible revision of the American History I learned when I was a kid and I studied in Law School. I can see where one could be confused.

Nevertheless because there may have been a few non-christians living in America and maybe in the case of Jefferson and a few others helping found our country does not argue against the fact that our country was founded on ideals fostered by the Christian religion. There were disagreements among the sects of the Protestants but No one is arguing they were not running the show back then. (after doing my research I am dropping the Judeo part out of this argument because a Jewish writer wanted out)

And whether a founder was a practicing Christian are not - you have not addressed the question of out of what tradition the U.S. sprang if it was not the Christian tradition. Look around the world at the time the U.S. was founded-- what models were out there. It was because of Christianity and the differences among the sects that America choose to let people worship as they desired. There is way more and we could get academic but I really do not see you arguing against that fact that the U.S. is the U.S. because it was founded and developed by Christian founders and their Ideals.

And as far as mixing religion and the state you are not right. I studied under a published scholar on this subject in Law School whom I am pretty sure was Jewish. The argument at the time was about whether a state could declare itself Baptist as opposed to a different type of Protestant sect. Not whether they wanted to keep religion out of the government. They almost all wanted it in.

I do get a little obesesed when I think people rewrite history and facts. Like the misquoting of Shakespeare.
 
Quote from jem:

Under what line of thought do you think these ideas came from. If not the Judeo Christian line.

there is no such thing as a "judeo christian" line. they are two very very different faiths and belief systems. that one came from the other ceased being relevant 1800 years ago.
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JEM/STU


STop quoting Jefferson and these other fore fathers....they may have been quoting and inserting God, but most of them had slaves and when they made the laws and the dec. of independence.....blacks and women did not count....Jefferson in fact was known for banging his slaves and even impregnated one........the point about founded on judeo christian beliefs is a known fact, however like many of the things of that time, they were a bit outdated....not withstanding the hypocrisy of allowing slaves and not recognizing women, yet claiming under god that all men are created equal.......In addition, when they called for the right to bare arms, it was done so to allow them to fight an upcoming war not to protect some gangster's right to carry a tommy gun or uzi in 2003
 
Quote from alfonso:

So really, this whole "animal torture" thing is hardly anything more than "sympathy play" or publicity stunt
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animal torture is wrong going all the way back to the first edition of Torah. animal use is ok - within guidelines - but torture is not.
 
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