Just who are the bad guys in the polygamy case?

Quote from trendlover:

Power in numbers. Sad that the women and children have been conditioned to think nothing is wrong, so they will not speak up. They are the institution too.
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You keep repeating this without any support. You're beginning to sound like Nancy Grace. Do you give these people any room for adopting a different lifestyle than the majority? What if the women liked the setup? I don't hear them complaining now. Who is to decide they were "brainwashed?" Everyone concedes the children were well-cared for, which is more than they can expect in foster care.

If there have been criminal offenses committed, I say prosecute them just like anyone else would be prosecuted. I don't understand the state's apparent position that they can impose group punishment on everyone at the compound for the crimes of a few. That, and the obviously bogus raid, are what people are complaining about.
 
Quote from AAAintheBeltway:
Do you give these people any room for adopting a different lifestyle than the majority?
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You mean the lifestyle that includes destroying the lives of children by raping them, which is what they have been convicted of doing? How many rapes must occur before you'll agree that they should be shut down?

Do you also support NAMBLA? After all, they're simply asking for the freedom to adopt a different lifestyle than the majority.

I figured your recent absence in this thread reflected the fact that you had thought better of your bizarre Politically Correct defense of these people, on the grounds that they are just another special interest group whose rights must be protected even if they claim the right to harm others.

I guess I was wrong.
 
Quote from AAAintheBeltway:

You keep repeating this without any support. You're beginning to sound like Nancy Grace. Do you give these people any room for adopting a different lifestyle than the majority? What if the women liked the setup? I don't hear them complaining now. Who is to decide they were "brainwashed?" Everyone concedes the children were well-cared for, which is more than they can expect in foster care.

If there have been criminal offenses committed, I say prosecute them just like anyone else would be prosecuted. I don't understand the state's apparent position that they can impose group punishment on everyone at the compound for the crimes of a few. That, and the obviously bogus raid, are what people are complaining about.
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I do understand that people are complaining about the raid. I have no problem with people who want to adopt a lifestyle different than majority ( if by choice) There is no choice, They are taught and shown from birth that this is what god wants, then told they will be damned if they go to the "outside", and that people on the outside live sinful and evil lives. So of course they do what they have been taught is righteous path. I know the children are taken care of, and there is an element of peace to their simple lifestyle. But when a young girl in her heart does not want to be with an older man, but stifles those feelings becasue she thinks those feeling are wrong and ungodly, and when an older women is put aside by her husband so he can spend time with his new and very young wives, but stifles those feelings because she is told it is ungodly, than whose rights have really been taken away?
As far as group punishment, I would not say it is punishment right now, but gathering evidence and facts.
If in regular society a call is placed about possible abuse at a home, and the abuse supposedly was done to one child in a house of 4 children, the cps will remove ALL children from the home, then investigate.
 
trendlover, I applaud you for being able to speak to these types in a respectful manner. You make one of several great points that smash their arguments to bits.

It just sickens me to see these people ignoring the facts and attempting to defend the behaviour of these cult freaks. Are all of the people in these prison/camps cult freaks? Nope. But strong measures must be taken to protect the children. If that means busting it up, blame the pedophiles at the top of the food chain.

I won't even dignify the whole 'What if some of the women don't mind being there' argument with a response.
 
Quote from traderNik:

trendlover, I applaud you for being able to speak to these types in a respectful manner. You make one of several great points that smash their arguments to bits.

It just sickens me to see these people ignoring the facts and attempting to defend the behaviour of these cult freaks. Are all of the people in these prison/camps cult freaks? Nope. But strong measures must be taken to protect the children. If that means busting it up, blame the pedophiles at the top of the food chain.

I won't even dignify the whole 'What if some of the women don't mind being there' argument with a response.
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I have to respond that of course women don't mind being a part of this, they know nothing else. Conditioned from birth to believe they are one of many wives becasue god has chosen them to do this.
AAABeltway, suppose you had a baby girl, not your daughter, but you raised her to believe that at 14 she is to be your wife. She never had exposure to other ways of life, and you home schooled her, fed her well, and taught her that there is a god who she must obey, and that gods plan is for her to be his spiritual wife, sex partner when she begins to menstruate. The only thing that baby girl knows is waht you told her, becasue you have kept all other information from her. Of course she will do as you want, and believe it is the right way. And if someone came busting into your house, and took her away from you, she would be terribly upset and not understand waht is wrong.
 
This polygamist groups leaders have chosen to seclude themselves from society. They choose to not attend the schools and not socialize with outsiders with exception of leaving for some food and supplies. That is the leaders choice. As a GROUP they practice polygamy becasue it is the teachings of their religion. Knowing this is why our law raided as a group. Becasue these people think and live as one. They all follow the same teachings and do not want people who do not live the way they do inside their compound. Therefore the law has treated them as the group they CHOSE to be. Mainstream society did not say they are not welcome to socialize, they themselves teach their memeber to not be part of mainstream society. And that is their right...but they do not have the right to have their own laws and think they are not subject to the laws of the country.
 
I am curious what would be response if this same situation were reversed and women were founders and leaders of this ranch and these were their teachings of god.
Women could have many husbands. Men could have only one wife. Baby boys were taught from birth that god has chosen them to be one of many husbands to a women. They are to not complain becasue this is unfavorable to god.
The cult starts with men and women of equal age marrying . They have many children. Then these children, young boys when they reach puberty will be chosen by one of the original women (who is now much older) to be her next husband through a spiritual marriage. The young boy is not to admire the girls of his age, but is to have sex and be the husband of the women who has chosen him to be her next husband. She is maybe 30 years or older now and still child bearing years. She then takes another young boy from the tribe to be her third husband. Now she is maybe 35 and still bears children from her young child make husband. Ok, now time goes on and she is too old to have children, so now all the young baby girls who have grown but were not given a chance at a husband becasue the older women had their choice, now get to picvk a husband. And they pick from the younger boys who have just reached puberty.
And if the balance if off and too many women to compete for the boys and trouble starts, they just drop off some young girls outside of the compound, to try and make it on their own.
Would you feel the same way?
Remember now as the cult grows over time you will have some fairly young men( meaning maybe 30 years old) who have to stay married to their 60 year old wife who has many husbands.
 
Here's the problem I am having. There has not been any proof, certainly not in court, that any of these accusations of child abuse are true. You don't prove that they abused children by linking to other groups that were alleged to have abused women. In our system, we require actual proof that the people who are charged did something wrong. Maybe there was sex with underage women. If so, prosecute it, although it's clear it would be selective prosecution because the state makes no effort to prosecute the vast amount of underage sex in the inner city.

What I have a problem with is saying these women were just so deluded their decisions can't be respected or credited. That sounds like something Obama would say. I am very uncomfortable with the idea the state can take your children away without any evidence they have been harmed because they disapprove of your lifestyle, beliefs or religion.
 
All different opinions on how this should have been handled. At least I think everyone here will agree if abuse of children is found, the offenders should be prosecuted.

What else do some of the people here want, the end of polygamy? That will never happen.

The end result of this raid will be no different than other raids. Some of these people are descendants of the Short Creek raid of 55 years ago.

History says that this sect will be broken up, for a while.

In a couple years when this prosecution and witch hunt is over, numerous new sects will be started by the adults and children and their descendants. Or most all - women, children, men of this sect - will return together just like in previous raids, maybe move to a different location.

And they will learn to be more cautious, more isolated, more mistrustful of the outside world, will find more loopholes to get around existing or new laws.

And more importantly, because of changing their tactics and going deeper underground, there will be more chance of abuse and less freedom within their community, and less likely the victims will be helped.

Nothing ever changes.

Polygamy will continue to increase.
 
Quote from AAAintheBeltway:

Here's the problem I am having. There has not been any proof, certainly not in court, that any of these accusations of child abuse are true. You don't prove that they abused children by linking to other groups that were alleged to have abused women. In our system, we require actual proof that the people who are charged did something wrong. Maybe there was sex with underage women. If so, prosecute it, although it's clear it would be selective prosecution because the state makes no effort to prosecute the vast amount of underage sex in the inner city.

What I have a problem with is saying these women were just so deluded their decisions can't be respected or credited. That sounds like something Obama would say. I am very uncomfortable with the idea the state can take your children away without any evidence they have been harmed because they disapprove of your lifestyle, beliefs or religion.
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Deluded is not waht these women are. They know nothing else but what was taught to them.
How many women raised outside of the compound and informed of their rights and choices in life would choose to not only marry a much older man when they are very young, but one that has many wives? And say they did choose this being informed of all their choices in life, how many of them would stay in this marriage after they got older and their husband took many more wives who are younger and who he spends more time with sexually?
I see nothing wrong with a young women with an older man. This happens in our society too. But the women chose to be with a much older man becasue she by her own reasoining was attracted to him and wanted to be with him. Its about choice and being given truthful information. Its not about being told god wants it this way and you will be damned if you don't comply.

I think these men who founded this church/cult/religion to satisfy their own desires with no regard for the womens right to choose deserve to be prosecuted more than the older man in our society who has a relationship with a 17 year old girl who CHOSE to be with this man when she didn't have to, and could have a boyfriend of her own age. Maybe her youth has caused her to make a bad choice, but obviously she genuinely was attracted to the older man, but also was informed of her choices. And maybe the older man is wiser and should not have explored the younger girl becasue of her age, BUT when it is consensual, and not forced by the fear of god, I do believe the man is guilty of nothing more than consensual sex with a youthful girl that attracted him, and he attracted her too. But their are laws, and he broke the law.
I question the raid myself, but there are ex members who have testimony to waht goes on. There is polygamy, but their marriage is considered spiritual (not of our law) hmm, could it be the founding elders thought of spiritual marriage as a way to loophole the polygmay laws in our country? How conveniant for them. But they will tell you spiritual mariage is gods creation.
 
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