Just who are the bad guys in the polygamy case?

Rat:
>lying on a warrant is huge... no way of getting
>around it... the ends do not justify the means here.

I agree with you Rat. I'm troubled by the way this case has been handled so far.

Unlike you I have *no* doubts about the crimes being committed -- I was raised in one of these compounds after all. I just believe you must have legal proof, and that an "end justifies the means" argument is as frightening as hell to our liberties.

JB
 
When you tell me you will put me on ignore Ratboy, are you taking away my liberty to have you hear my side of a debate, or are you exercising your liberty to not have to hear my side of a debate?
I don't know the right answer to this, just like I don't have the right answer to how the situation at the compound should have been handled.
 
http://www.sltrib.com/polygamy/ci_9091635

......Azar said he did not know how many girls are pregnant, but said it is a small number. CPS has previously said that three teenagers are pregnant. Salt Lake attorney Rod Parker, a spokesman for the FLDS, said that of the three, one teenager refused to take a pregnancy test, one is 18 and the other is 17. He also contends that the state's new count includes 17 adult women who are being classified as minors. "Beyond that I am unable to verify the information because the Texas Rangers took all the records that might be useful in responding to this," Parker said.

Two attorneys with Texas RioGrande Legal Aid (TRLA), which represents 48 mothers, challenged the "eyeball" test CPS used to separate minors from adults. "My clients told us they were put in a line and looked at," said Julie Balovich. "So I know that is how some of the numbers happened." The tally of women and children has changed almost daily over the past three weeks, following a raid on the YFZ Ranch in Eldorado. The ranch is owned by the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, a sect traditionally based in the twin towns of Hildale, Utah, and Colorado City, Ariz.

Texas officials removed the children from the sect because of what they describe as a "pervasive pattern" of requiring underage girls to "spiritually" marry much older men and become mothers. Amanda Chisholm, who also works for TRLA, said she would be surprised if the actual number of teenage girls who are pregnant or mothers is "anywhere near that high." "Until we can get numbers of how many of these women dispute the age CPS is attributing to them I wouldn't rely on any of the figures that [the state] gives out," Chisholm said.

TRLA attorney Julie Balovich said one woman now deemed to be a teenager is a 24-year-old woman who is pregnant. FLDS member Willie Jessop contends the state's tally also includes a 28-year-old whom the state has listed as being 17. "Do we correct it and get out the girls who are overage when the minute they do that, they forfeit their children?" he asked. "CPS has had a very difficult time being accurate with any of the numbers and this number is the most outrageous yet." Chisholm agreed that some women may be claiming to be minors in order to stay with their children, since CPS is only allowing mothers breast-feeding infants 12 months or younger or who are teenagers to remain in shelters. "I don't know if people are doing that but would understand why they might," she said.....
 
There are a total of 463 FLDS children - 250 females, 213 males - in state custody in Texas. Here is a breakdown of that count:
* 0-2: 101, 49 females, 52 males
* 3-5: 99, 46 females, 53 males
* 6-9: 131, 68 females, 63 males
* 10-13: 62, 34 females, 28 males
* 14-17: 42, 27 females, 15 males
* Disputed age: 26 females, now classified as 17 or younger.
* Two boys who turned 18 while in state custody also have voluntarily chosen to stay with younger boys.
Source: Texas Child Protective Services
 
i can tell you right now that Texas Governor Rick Perry is breathing down these state employees' necks. this could end his political career. he has already shown his character by trying to force little girls to get shots containing active cancer viruses. it came out he had a very cozy relationship with the big pharma company that was going to reap the benefits of this cash cow. $900 for every girl in the state of Texas.

he was already busted for violating the Logan Act by attending a criminal organization meeting. this man may be one of the greediest men to ever seek office. pure filth.. pure filth.... he scares me... he will do anything to hurt these little babies if it means saving his career.


rick%20perry.jpg
 
Quote from chuck.ells:

I wonder how sensationalized this story would be if they used 14 - 15 yo as the data for their stats.?
I think that would shut a lot of people up on this issue.
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is chuck.ells the only one that gets this stuff?

*****************************************

Lies and Statistics

Headlines today are trumpeting that 31 of 53 underage girls seized at the YFZ Ranch are either pregnant or have had children. Let's examine this claim just a moment.

In court at the mass 14-day hearing, the Department of Family and Protective Services claimed five girls between 16 and 19 were either pregnant or had kids. Later reports whittled that number down even further.

So how did we get so rapid an increase of 26 girls who're pregnant or have kids? DFPS spokesman Patrick Crimmins told the Deseret News: "Of those 53, Crimmins said 26 claim to be 18 or older. "But we don't think they are," he said."

Aaaah ... that explains it. I'd bet dollars to donuts every one of those 26 are pregnant or has a kid, since that would make DFPS' numbers add up. From the beginning, the agency seems to take these girls' word when it benefits their case, and label them liars when it suits them. That's probably a sound media strategy, but at the end of the day, in front of a judge, they shouldn't get to have it both ways.

If all of the additional "girls" they're now counting actually told DFPS they're 18 or older, and the agency has no documentary proof besides their suspicions that the women are lying, that puts a little different spin on it than most of the headlines today. Since DFPS has already says it disbelieves birth certificates and other documents found on the ranch during the search, I wonder on what they're basing this belief that the alleged crime victims are liars?

What's more, if the girls and their families say they're 18, on what basis I wonder can DFPS force them into foster care?

This case just gets stranger and stranger. There's still no complaining victim. The allegations spawning the raid were a hoax. The agency can't figure out how many kids its seized from day to day. And none of the crime victims agree with the state's allegations, which differ wildly in the media from what DFPS said in court. Just bizarre.
http://gritsforbreakfast.blogspot.com/2008/04/lies-and-statistics.html
 
Okay

Let's assume all the consequences of lying on a warrant.

YFZ vs constitution

The YFZ expends its resources (limited supply of money) in litigation against the people (endless supply of money). This should take years. As long as YFZ remains litigating they remain in the media spotlight (what they don't want) this is okay for the people to have this remain in the press, snooping and digging and asking for comments.

YFZ want privacy, the public wants the issue public.

The people may lose on the warrant (monetary damages,oh well it's only money), but have kept the attention on YFZ.

Texas wanted to know what was going on in there, now everone will know. YFZ wins on the technical issue, loses on every other cps allegation.

I'd be willing to bet, if you handed over all the children and apologize they wouldn't even sue. Maybe a third party. like the ACLU but if it keeps YFZ in the media, no way.
 
DFPS has no reason to lie, they do not need to justify there actions, they followed procedure (however subjective), cps does not write the laws it must follow. They acted on a good faith (so they said) phone call. They do not need to defend what the law requires them to do.

YFZ has the most to lose. They would lie.
 
Quote from nutmeg:

DFPS has no reason to lie, they do not need to justify there actions, they followed procedure (however subjective), cps does not write the laws it must follow. They acted on a good faith (so they said) phone call. They do not need to defend what the law requires them to do.

YFZ has the most to lose. They would lie.
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LMAOOOOOOO
 
Quote from ratboy88:

LMAOOOOOOO
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May the best liar win. CPS vs YFZ

The kids are not the issue (sarcasm). The issue is, who is the better liar. CPS or YFZ? Who has the better lawyer? Who has more rights?

You and everyone else can hash out the law, procedure in the press and the courtroom. The kids won't mind. They'll end up in a foster home now or carry the childhood baggage as destiny into the future. Pay now or pay later.
 
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