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It's settled: Hell is real.
- Thread starter Turok
- Start date
Jesus never says you are saved by faith, like Paul does. Either way, it contradicts what "God" says in the old testament concerning an afterlife, doesn't it?Quote from jem:
jesus and paul do not necessarily contradict each other.
Acting on Gods promises is the work that grants you eternal life.
Go through the Gospels see what Jesus says you must do to achieve eternal life and then act on it. The acting on it is your faith.
Quote from jem:
jesus and paul do not necessarily contradict each other.
Acting on Gods promises is the work that grants you eternal life.
Go through the Gospels see what Jesus says you must do to achieve eternal life and then act on it. The acting on it is your faith.
Jesus was asked only once in the bible exactly what one must do to gain eternal life. He never said just believe. He said:
Now a man came up to Jesus and asked, "Teacher, what good thing must I do to get eternal life?" "Why do you ask me about what is good?" Jesus replied. "There is only One who is good. If you want to enter life, obey the commandments." "Which ones?" the man inquired. Jesus replied, " `Do not murder, do not commit adultery, do not steal, do not give false testimony, honor your father and mother,' and `love your neighbor as yourself.'" "All these I have kept," the young man said. "What do I still lack?" Jesus answered, "If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me." "
Quote from jzlucas:
Jesus never says you are saved by faith, like Paul does. Either way, it contradicts what "God" says in the old testament concerning an afterlife, doesn't it?
When you study both the old and new testament you see Abraham was justified by believing Gods promise and by acting on it. it was hardly a good work to be ready to kill his son.
Jesus does state how to have eternal life. if you examine his statements you will see -- yes, if you can act perfectly you can achieve eternal life. (Basically being a perfect jew under the old law) However when the young man (prince) claimed to keep the commandments Jesus put up another hurdle for him.
Getting in by works looks very very difficult to me.
Jesus tell you what you must do to have eternal life.
1. If you can follow the ten commandments and be would would have been a perfect jew (I suspect you would have inherited eternal life)
matt 9:16
When the young man said he did keep the commandments jesus said if thou wilt be perfect then you not only have to be perfect in keeping the law but you have to sell everthing - give it to the poor and follow me.
As I read this I suspect Jesus did not believe the young man. he said if thou wilt be perfect...
2. mark 10:17
When questioned the lawyer said these are the most important commandments - you must love God and your neighbor.
Jesus give the example of - the good samaritan.
I see this a a combo of faith and love in God and then acting in accordance with that love.
3. Then you have John 3:15 -- Whosever believeth in him should not perish but have eternal life. (Justified by faith in the Gospels because trying to do it by works alone is almost impossibile)
4. John: 5:39 Search the scriptures (old testament at time of jesus) for the ones that speak of jesus have eternal life. This is self explanatory. A work of faith perhaps.
5. John: 6:54 - Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eteranl life, and I will raise him up a the last day.
This is repeated many times as jews, and disciples question his statement.
This to me is the quintessential teaching for eternal life if you are not perfect. if you are not justified by the law then you better believe jesus's teaching here and act on it.
6. John 6:68 - Simon Peter after being asked if he wishes to leave says where would I go - thou has the words of eternal life.
To me there are a few ways to achieve eternal life. But they require faith in Gods law or promises and then acting in a way that shows you believe Gods promise.
As far as an afterlife in the old testament. There is reference to the afterlife and it is not inconsistent with the fact that Jesus had to resurrect to open the Gates of heaven.
Quote from jem:
When you study both the old and new testament you see Abraham was justified by believing Gods promise and by acting on it. it was hardly a good work to be ready to kill his son.
Jesus does state how to have eternal life. if you examine his statements you will see -- yes, if you can act perfectly you can achieve eternal life. (Basically being a perfect jew under the old law) However when the young man (prince) claimed to keep the commandments Jesus put up another hurdle for him.
Getting in by works looks very very difficult to me.
Jesus tell you what you must do to have eternal life.
1. If you can follow the ten commandments and be would would have been a perfect jew (I suspect you would have inherited eternal life)
matt 9:16
When the young man said he did keep the commandments jesus said if thou wilt be perfect then you not only have to be perfect in keeping the law but you have to sell everthing - give it to the poor and follow me.
So if you are claiming to pefect keep Gods law you are going to still have road blocks. But at least back then it was an avenue.
2. mark 10:17 When questioned by the lawyer - you must love God and your neighbor and you must act consistent with that Golden rule and Jesus gives the example - the good samaritan
3. Then you have John 3:15 -- Whosever believeth in him should not perish but have eternal life. In you see a few versus later one is told to follow truth.
4. John: 5:39 Search the scriptures (old testament at time of jesus) for the ones that speak of jesus have eternal life
5. John: 6:54 - Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eteranl life, and I will raise him up a the last day.
This is repeated many times as jews, and disciples question his statement.
6. John 6:68 - Simon Peter after being asked if he wishes to leave says where would I go - thou has the words of eternal life.
To me there are a few ways to achieve eternal life. But they require faith in Gods law or promises and then acting in away that shows you believe Gods promise. The most objective one to me is the promise made in John chapter 6. But very few people have that kind of faith and act on it.
As far as an afterlife in the old testament. There is reference to the afterlife and it is not inconsistent with the fact that Jesus had to resurrect to open the Gates of heaven.
So you would rather concoct excuses to dismiss Jesus clear instructions the only time he was asked?Interesting how at times the bible is literal and other times you can change its meaning to suit your purposes.
It is all just a play on words anyhow because belief in an afterlife or heaven or hell is nothing more than superstition.
Quote from vhehn:
So you would rather concoct excuses to dismiss Jesus clear instructions the only time he was asked?Interesting how at times the bible is literal and other times you can change its meaning to suit your purposes.
It is all just a play on words anyhow because belief in an afterlife or heaven or hell is nothing more than superstition.
Talk about the pot calling the kettle black. Your picture should be beside the explanation of that phrase.
Quote from vhehn:
So you would rather concoct excuses to dismiss Jesus clear instructions the only time he was asked?Interesting how at times the bible is literal and other times you can change its meaning to suit your purposes.
It is all just a play on words anyhow because belief in an afterlife or heaven or hell is nothing more than superstition.
What are you talking about. I said you have a few ways of obtaining eternal life.
Are you keeping all the commandments?
If thou wilt be perfect giver everything to the poor.
I am not concocting any excuses. Plain as day if you can do what jesus says you must do to obtain eternal life - you will get it.
Quote from jem:
What are you talking about. I said you have a few ways of obtaining eternal life.
if you believe the bible, Jesus when asked ,never said you have several ways. He clearly said there is only one way? If he wanted to allow other ways why didnt he mention them then? Have you sold all of your possessions yet?
I am not obligated to sell my possession because i am not superstitious and am not a follower of Jesus. Jesus was just a man.
You on the other hand as a believer have other obligations.
A state of skepticism and suspense may amuse a few inquisitive minds.
But the practice of superstition is so congenial to the multitude that, if they are forcibly awakened, they still regret the loss of their pleasing vision.- Edward Gibbon, Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire