Iterative Refinement

[PointOne]

Thanks, that helps a lot. I have 3 follow up questions:

Quote from Spydertrader:

The Bar to which you refer in your questions represents the only FTT of the day.

1. Was the actual point of the FTT the start (the open to high movement) of the next bar?

In addition, the bar represents an FTT on a Traverse and not a channel.

2. Do you mean a traverse of the carry over short which started on Wednesday?

3. Do you consider, even if you don't annotate explicitly, "ASAP 2 bar tapes" taken from the high/low of bar 1 through bar 2's open?


The other points in your post are well noted.

Many thanks for your guidance. It may look like I've taken a step backwards but I feel a P3 coming on.

 

[oddiduro]

Quote from romanus:

I admit to sharing the same paranoia. What's even worse, the longer I study this the more it seems that this whole thing may be a function of individual's gift and not a rule based logic. Keep in mind that Spydertrader could trade ES profitably without any of these tools (channels, FTT's etc.) Jack Hershey mentioned somewhere that on the first meeting in Tucson he pulled more than daily range out of ES. Look at Mr. Black who admits to failing today's test on bar 6. Bur did he really? He is extracting from the market like there's no tomorrow, in any imaginable way - FTT's, pt3's, FBO's etc. One thing for sure - he definitely had a lot of screen time. Spydertrader had 3 years of equities and nothing but P/V. If something fails to presents itself in a clear and logical way - it's probably because it is designed this way. And "THEY" know exactly what signal to show to take one's money. Lots and lots of screen time may be the only possible solution.

Jack teaches nothing new. All of this has been taught before in different modalities.

Price, volume, formations....goes as far back as Gann and Livermore.

Many of you are overthinking this process, like last year, and the year before that.

1. Where is price going?
2. Does volume support that direction?

That's it.

Best Regards
Oddi

 

[oddiduro]

Quote from LittleMac:

Last night at around 3:00a.m. there was a post deleted from some guy saying it was naive to believe jack and spyder without documents or something like that.

The post was deleted. Now I don't really care that the post was deleted besides the fact that it was a post that in someones opinion brought up a negative view of the system. It didn't contain vitriol or anything of that sort. In fact I was thinking at the time that it is naive to believe that Spyder would waste his time for years teaching a system that he didn't believe in.

Now why I am positive about the merits of the system, I did express some frustration with the ways things drag on and the way things are conveyed.

The situation I gave about how you have different teachers and some reach you and some don't is completely fair. The fact is that like learning.... teaching is also about adjusting. Bundlemaker(from what Ive read)was driven to near insanity it looks like trying to get this point across. The fact is there's no bend in the way things are conveyed in this forum and it builds frustration. But the saddest thing of all is people see the way Bundlemaker and the kid above(in an extreme case)are shunned and they are probably terrified to bring constructive criticism into the teaching and passing along of this method.

That is plain pathetic in my opinion. Constructive criticism is essential to any learning progress. If you cant express that the ONE AND ONLY way things are being conveyed is hard to understand, then you are a quite simply a drone in my opinion.

Also, in my opinion the number one way to validate a system is to convince a detractor or even an unbeliever. When someone like bundlemaker who put countless time into this system is driven off the reservation, it says to me that there's a lack of confidence in the system which I don't believe there is. I feel people are too proud about the system to go after people like bundlemaker. If you believe in something you make it known that it is the way and you ADJUST to make sure even the ones who fall off the path know that.

Back when I was learning this method, I would lurk. Then I would appear and ask some pointed questions.

The questions would be closed ended, and clear.

Some people in the past have asked questions and editorialized while doing it.

I do not know if you are one of these people, but if you have questions, ask them. Do not debate the answer. Apply the answer. If there seems to be a problem, determine if it is the answer, the application, or both.

Best Regards
Oddi

 

[LittleMac]

I am glad you sorted this out. Others got there, and so shall we. It's just a matter of placing a proper focus on things that really matter and avoiding energy expenditure on trivialities that don't, such as who's got success with the system and who don't, and who defends it.

This is completely not sarcastic and exactly how I felt when I read this:

Agreed buddy.... One day we'll get there buddy.... One day we'll get there and we'll talk about the old days when these posts were nothing but nonsense....I cant wait for that day

 

[oddiduro]

Quote from LittleMac:

Haven't ask to see any of those once(look it up)....Let me ask you this.... You ever heard of Paul from the Bible by any chance?? If you haven't.. read his story regardless of your religious background, the point will still matter.

Unfortunately for this forum, there is and might not ever be a Paul.

I myself am not a candidate cause as I said I do believe the system works but hopefully some day there will be a Paul here. It certainly would'nt hurt this system at all.

LittleMac

http://www.elitetrader.com/vb/showthread.php?s=&postid=1079350&highlight=falsify#post1079350

 

[callmate]

Quote from LittleMac:

I do believe the system works ..

----------------------------------------------------------------------
Well you are half way there

I suggest you take sometime out then come back all refreshed.

Concentrate on the early part of the futures journal

http://www.elitetrader.com/vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=83604

Keep it simple, Price and Volume, think in terms of the dominant and non-dominant trends. There is no magic formula which will help you to simply 'get it'.

 

[romanus]

Quote from LittleMac:

I am glad you sorted this out. Others got there, and so shall we. It's just a matter of placing a proper focus on things that really matter and avoiding energy expenditure on trivialities that don't, such as who's got success with the system and who don't, and who defends it.

This is completely not sarcastic and exactly how I felt when I read this:

Agreed buddy.... One day we'll get there buddy.... One day we'll get there and we'll talk about the old days when these posts were nothing but nonsense....I cant wait for that day

We're in the same boat - trying to learn this. Keep in mind that this is not a college book on calculus that you can read, do some exercises and pass the test. The journals are a collection of extremely valuable insights into the inner workings of the market generously provided by a very gifted individual. The actual learning is your own responsibility. If you ask a question and the answer is "smoke these mushrooms and watch sesame street", repeat this mantra - "f*ck it", move on and file it under 'things to be discovered on my own'. Complaining is a waste of your time and energy. Arguing with anonymous posters who obviously don't give a crap about your well being is even bigger waste. If you need proof that it's possible to learn from everything that Spydertrader had already posted - look at Mr. Black or Callmate.

 

[FerdinandAlx]

Quote from LittleMac:

Haven't ask to see any of those once(look it up)....Let me ask you this.... You ever heard of Paul from the Bible by any chance?? If you haven't.. read his story regardless of your religious background, the point will still matter.

Unfortunately for this forum, there is and might not ever be a Paul.

I myself am not a candidate cause as I said I do believe the system works but hopefully some day there will be a Paul here. It certainly would'nt hurt this system at all.

What this method requires is practice, practise, practise. A number of templates have been given to you to work with, the most important of which is the P/V relationship. It's your job to train yourself to apply those templates under different market conditions and circumstances.

Succesful trading is based primarily on observation, experience and routine. To contrast it with Pauline Christianity: in this gospel salvation is not based on faith but on good works. Faith doesn't profit. [James 2:14]

 

[FerdinandAlx]

Quote from Spydertrader:

I understand how people might think they had a Point Three (simply by watching Volume), but the reality is, today the increasing volume developed primarily from Formation Break Outs. This does not a trend make.


- Spydertrader

I found this to be the hardest part of trading this method: dealing with situations where increasing volume does not translate into a trend. I learned to anticipate such market behaviour by carefully observing price action around order walls on the DOM and keeping track of horizontal support/resistance.

 

[Spydertrader]

Quote from PointOne:

1. Was the actual point of the FTT the start (the open to high movement) of the next bar?

The FTT falls on the Bar circled where you have a large red 'Number One' on your chart.

Quote from PointOne:

2. Do you mean a traverse of the carry over short which started on Wednesday?

Your green up Point Three represents a Traverse and not a channel. In other words, a channel requires traverses inside it. The market did not provide any here.

Quote from PointOne:

3. Do you consider, even if you don't annotate explicitly, "ASAP 2 bar tapes" taken from the high/low of bar 1 through bar 2's open?

I do not understand this question.

Quote from PointOne:

It may look like I've taken a step backwards but I feel a P3 coming on.

When someone says, "I 'see' a Point Three forming on a specific bar," they often refer to Volume moving to increasing levels over the previous bar. This represents reacting annotation. One should have the ability to anticipate the development of a Point Three long before increasing Volume appears on one's charting software.

How?

Well, every Traverse has a Point One, Point Two and a Point Three. An FTT forms a Point One. Without an FTT, one cannot have a Point One, and without a Point One, one cannot then have a Point Two or Point Three. Since we have previously discussed how to determine if the market has created an FTT, the rest of the sequences should fall right into place.

HTH

- Spydertrader