Iterative Refinement

[Spydertrader]

Quote from cnms2:

PM

I've reviewed your PM several times. I chose not to respond for a few hours in an effort to try and make you see things from an entirely different perspective than the way you currently have chosen to view things. I have no intention of posting the PM, as I really don't want to cause you embarassment. However, after a thorough review, your PM served no other purpose than to reinforce my take on your current perspective.

In other words, you have ....

Totally Missed the Point

... of my posts to you.

You feel I have responded in a pejorative fashion. I have not.

You feel more than one way exists to understand these methods, when in fact, I am not talking about 'ways' to learn, or 'ways' to go about the process of understanding.

What I am trying to get through to you is that you have most definitely missed a critical component.

I know this because of the questions you ask.

In addition, you are not the only one who finds themselves in a similar situation.

With respect to the learning process, a filter exists which (having been in place for a long time) often filters out those unwilling or unable to 'do the work' as required. Occassionally, this very same filter has the unintended consequence of causing frustration for those performing the efforts required of success.

Guess where you are right now?

Now, you have two choices before you.

You can chose to review my posts to you - reading them with the understanding that they were made in an effort to get you to 'see' what (by your own words) you currently cannot.

Or

You can continue to feel as if I attacked you, and all of this, represents nothing more than a big ego trip on my part.

Whichever decision you make won't effect my own bottom line whatsoever. However, know this. You have made a critical error in thinking. Fortunately for you, I've chosen to take the time to point it out to you, and provide a solution. If you choose to ignore the advice provided - focusing instead on the 'tone' of my posts - then you'll have made a second critical error this evening.

Stop. Breathe. and Think for a moment.

This isn't my ego talking.

This is me trying to shake you from the stupor your ego has you in.

You don't like being told you are wrong. So what. Nobody does.
You don't like being talked to in this fashion. So what. Nobody does.

But guess what?

At minimum this exchange has caused a whole lot of those people reading along (in a similar situation to yourself) to stop and think.

As a result, a whole new group of people - previously unable to 'see' that which the market provides - will take a giant step forward. By any measure, that represents a successful end result.

All that remains is for you to determine if your name will be among those who chose correctly.

Seriously, do you really think I get off on berating people over the Internet?

Sheesh.

Do yourself a favor, and go review my posts. Only this time, read them from the perspective that, maybe, just maybe the guy writing them knows a little something about where you currently find yourself.

Someday, you'll thank me for taking the time to write all this out.

Until then, good journey to you.

- Spydertrader

 

[icarus618]

Quote from cnms2:

Thanks. It would be great if you could elaborate on how you're using the fine tools.

I've thought about your request and I'm going to decline at this time primarily for the reason that this is an area I've yet to grasp to the extent I can organize my thoughts to relay to another in a helpful way.

I will say that you won't miss out on much. Currently I use only the DOM (inside market) element of the fine control. (I include the 2m gaussian among the medium control elements.) The fine control does not tip the action scale for me. I use it as a finer timing tool once I decide to take action (except hold).

Moreover, I do not know your current status operationally, but coarse and medium are most important and wholly sufficient for extracting. For anyone not yet operational, I would emphasize the necessity of really nailing down coarse control. Medium is just finer coarse.

Cheers.

 

[astral]

Spyder, am I correct if I say that forex market leads stock market by 6-8months?

Jack referred that 2008 will have 7legs.

we just finished leg 3 (or within a few days). When I look at JPY daily, I see the same pattern.

The stock market today is where JPY was at exactly 17-18 August. 4Legs followed before
The bottom was reached 17 March.

Am I correct that leg 4 started friday?

 

[palinuro]

Quote from Spydertrader:



For clarity sake, I did not intend to suggest people stop posting entry and exit points, or refrain from posting blotters. Rather, I felt those who had not yet made it to the level of profitability enjoyed by those currently posting success stories might benefit from the insight into why (from an M-A-D-A vantage point) traders entered, exited, held or reversed.
...


He posted a bunch of them here.



- Spydertrader

Thanks to Icarus and ehorn for posting the trade sequences. I find having a sequence is generally enough to figure out what the person is seeing, and what 'rules' he/she is following. And working that out from the execution reports and the chart is perhaps even more useful than having it explained. It also helps to see how people (ehorn, in this case) deal with subsequent 'heat' - one of my problem areas.

So both were very helpful. I hope more will be forthcoming, as I'm sure many would benefit - and perhaps discussion would help the posters, as well.

- palinuro

 

[Tums]

Price Bar/Volume Bar Coloring

I noticed some of the posted charts have the wrong Price Bar/Volume Bar colors.

Please take a moment to compare your charts to Spyders. Raise your hands if your colors are different.

If you are using Ninja and one of the Hershey scripts, you have it easy. But that does not mean you don't have to understand the coloring rules.

Price Bar/Volume Bar Coloring Rule is an integral part of this method. Wrong coloring does not necessarily lead to a wrong trade decision. But correct coloring enhances your understanding of the Gaussian event, which in turn leads to the correct M & A.




p.s. please do not use my charts from last year as reference. They are wrong too. :-(

 

[ehorn]

Quote from palinuro:

Thanks to Icarus and ehorn for posting the trade sequences. I find having a sequence is generally enough to figure out what the person is seeing, and what 'rules' he/she is following. And working that out from the execution reports and the chart is perhaps even more useful than having it explained. It also helps to see how people (ehorn, in this case) deal with subsequent 'heat' - one of my problem areas.

So both were very helpful. I hope more will be forthcoming, as I'm sure many would benefit - and perhaps discussion would help the posters, as well.

- palinuro

Lol,

For those with knowledge, skills, and experience, I imagine posting a blotter is like handing over your detailed medical records to a seasoned physician for review

and 'heat' is a succinct way to put it too.... With regard to my actions from Friday, and at my stage of development, there were 2 areas (T3 and T4) where not taking a sufficient data set and waiting for the sequence to complete caused me to have brief moments of it (and find myself upside down for brief periods).

FWIW, I will briefly share my personal critique, as I review my notes and ES chart (and from my skill level at this stage in my journey, which is limited):

T1 was a brain fart (Not in the sense that I feel the entry was bad per se, but I was not settled into my routine and did not take sufficient data set before moving to action (the result - no good mojo feelings and no closure of the MADA loop). Settled myself for T2.

T3 was early (next bar was the VE and IBGS on IRV). Subsequent 4 bars based out showing lateral movement (close of bar).

T4 was the most 'heat' I remember encountering. I was early (1-3 bars early depending on ones decision and action points) and I recall the next bar (after 'T') came out firing pretty hard until it settled back within the LM. Again not waiting for the sequence to complete (VE and close back within LM on IBV brought my heartrate back in line ).

T5 was a ringer (for me anyways) - The retrace to this area was anticipated from T4 action and CO channel I had drawn on the chart. T5 exit (which would have been a nice reverse) was me stepping aside given the major increase in pace (I am still learning how to shift gears smoothly without grinding and dumping the clutch on high speed tracks)

P.S. IMHO, Heat is bad... we don't want heat, we want to stay cool If we feel heat, it's time for debrief.

 

[palinuro]

Quote from ehorn:



P.S. IMHO, Heat is bad... we don't want heat, we want to stay cool If we feel heat, it's time for debrief.

Yes, but you did stay pretty cool - had I been short, I would have exited T4 for a loss on that IBV bar long before it closed back inside the LM.

Thanks for the commentary!

- palinuro

 

[ehorn]

Quote from palinuro:

Yes, but you did stay pretty cool - had I been short, I would have exited T4 for a loss on that IBV bar long before it closed back inside the LM.

Thanks for the commentary!

- palinuro

There were a couple of principles which (from my current skills and understanding, for better or worse) kept me in it:

The personal decision and dicipline (which I am still developing) to resist the urge to trade intra-bar and to only take actions (other than hold) at close-of bar (while continuously performing the MADA sweep).

The understanding that newly forming dominant trends retrace to form a wider (forest level type) channel.

 

[ehorn]

Quote from icarus618:

Is this SCT? If it is, maybe a one-armed version of it. I'm like the basketball player who has yet to teach himself how to dribble with either hand. So I'm constantly driving right, right, right. Luckily the market plays no defense whatsoever so I can score pretty much at will. Anyway, I'm not claiming to be an All-Star; I'm still working on my game.

Lol, Nice trading! If that is dribbling with one hand, MJ's record is in trouble

 

[romanus]

Some Random But Not Accidental Thoughts On Learning That May Point Towards the Path to 'Enlightenment'

1. Quote from Spydertrader: The best (and only way to learn this stuff is by building the correct mental pathways developed from watching the market itself.
   
2. Quote from Spydertrader: Get people's eyes on a chart, and in time, hope the Beginning Trader can learn to 'see' the sequences.
   
3. Quote from Spydertrader: I watched the charts. People's eyes need to be on the chart watching Price and Volume in an attempt to note context and the subtle differences which often make the difference between continuation and change. Having one's eyes focused on anything other than Price and Volume misses so many of the lessons and signals the market provides. I've said it before, and it needs repeating - Price and Volume is all anyone ever needs.
   
4. Quote from Spydertrader: … hand drawn charts contained nothing more than Price, Volume, Channels and Gaussians. Beginning with the USENET posts in the late 1990's, Jack added MACD and Stochastic Settings (different than the default) in an effort to get people to 'see' the changes in Price and Volume needed to trade as Jack described. In other words, The MACD, The Stochastic Indicator, The DOM, and The Tic chart all represented tools used to instruct a learning trader on how to 'translate' the information shown in a Price Bar. To that end, they are less representaive of a 'Finer Tool Set' and more an illustration of what occurs each and every day within each and every five minute bar.
   
5. Quote from Grob109: For a long time I have understood how knowledge, skills and experience are gained. It only happens as a process and to tranfer to another the concept of learning as a mind building process is very difficult. To build the pathways in the mind only comes from processing.
   
6. Quote from jack hershey: A trader stays on point in the learning process by looking at the whole snowflake first and then delving further into the parts of the snowflake as he needs to be more effective and efficient.
   
7. Quote from jack hershey: A purposeful learner doing work month after month in an orderly and complete way does do the job by using, as a beginning point, a clearing in the mind. A core is founded and shells of more and more sophisitcated thinking are acquired knowledge accumulate. Learning is a process. The subconscious assembles sinews of strong themes of skills that are used repeatedly and strengthened with every success.
   
8. Quote from jack hershey: This is something that is learned through a process. where more and more pieces are assimilated and interconnected.
   
9. Quote from Grob109: The Ancients have always made it a point of insisting that aq person's teacher is just there to verify that the learner is doing good things as he goes about learning. What I mean is this: the questions arrise as a consequence of considerations of the known and personal consciousness.
   
   If you look at the last 3000 years, there has been a consistent path of learning by learners who have the guidance of teachers who just dwell with the learner about aspects of the learning process.
   
   It is NOT a Q and A set of events over time.
   
   It is a process whereby a person learn to know how to know.
   
10. Quote from makosgu: A long while ago, I got rid of the "I think I get it" because usually it means "I really don't get it". Instead I dwelled on "aha"s. If you THINK you get it, then you probably "DON'T" get it because when you DO get it, it makes perfect sense and you can easily recognize it on the chart because you know EXACTLY what the picture looks like even though you hadn't seen it before... In other words, you know exactly what it looks like and when you see it for the first time, it looks exactly like what you thought it would look like... [/list=1]