Isreal has declared open war with Lebanon :D

[Sam123]

If Israel takes total control of Gaza, the West Bank, and Lebanon, you remove all stateless territories around its borders, thereby putting Hamas, Hezbolla and the rest of the Islamists out of business. It essentially ends the proxy war and forces Israel’s neighbors, Egypt, Jordan, and Syria to become responsible for any future aggression against Israel.

The basic problem with our global war against the Islamists is the lack of a policy that addresses the World’s stateless territories. And Israel is surrounded by it.

 

[ssternlight]

Quote from Sam123:

If Israel takes total control of Gaza, the West Bank, and Lebanon, you remove all stateless territories around its borders, thereby putting Hamas, Hezbolla and the rest of the Islamists out of business. It essentially ends the proxy war and forces Israel’s neighbors, Egypt, Jordan, and Syria to become responsible for any future aggression against Israel.

The basic problem with our global war against the Islamists is the lack of a policy that addresses the World’s stateless territories. And Israel is surrounded by it.

Israel had control of and administered all of these areas years ago and it didn't work.

In order for your proposal to make it I think you have to move all of the Palestinians out. In order to do that you'd probably have to go to war with the rest of the arab nations as they don't want them either.

The other problem is that the Palestinians serve as a source of cheap labor for Israel -- similar to the immigration issue here.

 

[ssternlight]

Quote from gkishot:

Military sends clear signals to those who direct policies on the other side. Anyway when it comes down to using military force I don't understand the notion of proportionality. Never read of it in history books. They say in the book: a la guerr come al guerra.

While what you say is no doubt true for conventional warfare that is not what Israel faces here -- stateless/guerilla warfare.

Israel has tried the conventional approach for years and it hasn't worked. That's why there is/has been a peace process. Short of throwing out all the Palestinians there doesn't appear to be a military solution.

By the by, the cold war was a good example of proportional warfare -- imo. It saved the planet from a nuclear holocaust while we worked out our differences with the old Soviet Union economically.

Just my $.02.

 

[dddooo]

Quote from ssternlight:

the cold war was a good example of proportional warfare -- imo.

If someone wanted to drive you into the sea and instead you got the upper hand and drove your enemy into the sea - would that response be proportional enough for your taste? On another note if you're attacked with a knife and you have a gun, does shooting the sucker's brains out is grossly disproportionate in your opinion?

 

[gkishot]

Quote from ssternlight:

While what you say is no doubt true for conventional warfare that is not what Israel faces here -- stateless/guerilla warfare.

Israel has tried the conventional approach for years and it hasn't worked. That's why there is/has been a peace process. Short of throwing out all the Palestinians there doesn't appear to be a military solution.

By the by, the cold war was a good example of proportional warfare -- imo. It saved the planet from a nuclear holocaust while we worked out our differences with the old Soviet Union economically.

Just my $.02.

Cold war was a good example of a balanced warfare garanteed by the mutual annihilation. That's why I frankly don't understand why Israel can't kidnap few hizbolah soldiers and trade them for Israelis. Hizbolah uses special forces for their operations. Why Israel can not do the same instead of embarking on all-out war.

 

[ssternlight]

Quote from dddooo:

If someone wanted to drive you into the sea and instead you got the upper hand and drove your enemy into the sea - would that response be proportional enough for your taste? On another note if you're attacked with a knife and you have a gun, does shooting the sucker's brains out is grossly disproportionate in your opinion?

It's all about capabilities. They don't have the capability to drive Israel into the sea. So, we don't have to worry about that one do we?

If someone attacked me with a knife and I killed him and 30 innocent bystanders with my tank or dropped a bomb on his house and got the entire block I would consider that disproportionate -- which is closer to what Israel is doing right now than just using a "gun."

I would most likely consider it counterproductive as well as I would have done additional recruiting for the terrorists by enraging the innocent bystanders/survivors.

Again, just my $.02.

 

[ZZZzzzzzzz]

Wouldn't be an equal trade in their mind.

One Israel soldier in their mind is worth more than all Palestinians combined....

Quote from gkishot:

Cold war was a good example of a balanced warfare garanteed by the mutual annihilation. That's why I frankly don't understand why Israel can't kidnap few hizbolah soldiers and trade them for Israelis.

 

[ssternlight]

Quote from gkishot:

Cold war was a good example of a balanced warfare garanteed by the mutual annihilation. That's why I frankly don't understand why Israel can't kidnap few hizbolah soldiers and trade them for Israelis.

Which is why I can't help but wonder if there isn't something larger going on here...

 

[dddooo]

Quote from gkishot:

Cold war was a good example of a balanced warfare. That's why I frankly don't understand why Israel can't kidnap few hizbolah soldiers and trade them for Israelis.

Yep, and given the fact that Hezbollah/Hamas have been shelling Israeli towns for years with Katyusha/Qassam rockets I don't understand why Israel would not do the same and would not wipe out both shitholes. And given the fact that hamas/hezbollah have been trying very hard to kill as many israeli civilians as they possibly could, I am sure you won't mind Israelis doing the same thing and murdering as many palestinians and lebenese as they can. Right? Is that the proportional response you'd approve?

 

[gkishot]

Your considerations do not apply to the nations, national interests and national security. In order to bring the nation to court one should overcome it first. As it happened in Iraq. Or with Germany in WW2. That's the major the problem with UN. It tryes to impose the legal laws on nations but how are it's going to enforce them. And how are you going to deal with the states that invented the ways though their proxies ( which are not formally states) to circemvent those laws? And I am very sceptical overall that the matters of national security are governed by official bodys imposed laws. It's like people are trying to make up laws of physics.