I use esignal for charting and AKAM was just one stock of 30 or so I was watching that day, on my 4 monitor setup and noticed the volume surge as it made new highs.
Much like NTES today same play.
InvesTools anyone?
- Thread starter peekaboo2yoo
- Start date
I use esignal for charting and AKAM was just one stock of 30 or so I was watching that day, on my 4 monitor setup and noticed the volume surge as it made new highs.
Much like NTES today same play.
Hi HW
OK so I took the class
a couple of observations
In my opinion, its clearly for beginners and would have little or no value to an experienced (or even novice?) trader
But I think it has value to the completely uninformed:
2 examples:
1) There were about 200 people in the class. By a show of hands about 1/3 of them had money in mutual funds. I did an informal poll of people during breaks and at lunch (not very scientific) but about half of those I asked had not heard of ETFs (QQQQ, DIA, SPY etc). The instructor made the argument that ETF's are a better investment than mutual funds. I would agree.
Conclusion: For the folks in the population mentioned above --- acting on that information will probably be worth the 995 bucks they paid to hear it
Could they have gotten the information other ways?
Yes
But econmically - however you get it - even if you pay 995 bucks - it is still something you should know and take action on
2) I was unaware of the concept of a covered call
For the last 17 years I have been the typical 'buy and hold' investor. I put money into employer stocks via 401Ks and stock purchase plans - the vast majority in GE, IBM and Cisco - since that is the companies my wife and I have worked for.
Recently as those stocks have hit highs - I have sold them and moved the money into ETF's --- and plan to leave it there until I need it (maybe a 10-15 year horizon)
The instructor made the argument that if I was gonna leave my IRA money in an ETF and never touch it --- a covered call could yield me an extra 1-2% a month in an up or sideways market and leave me no worse off in a down market
I believe this is sound reasoning and I am going to try it
If it is and I generate 1-2% a month for half the months in a year --- on 500K in an IRA
Then the 995 bucks will have been worth it
Ok - so those are my first 2 positive observations
On the negative side -------
In 2 days and 16 hours of class time, they discussed concepts and techniques for maybe 5 of those hours
the rest was mainly self congratulation, old style tent-preaching type motivational speaches and purley silly (though entertaining) stories.
For instance the day 2 instructor devoted a full hour to a story about his daddy the pig farmer
laughing......
so my observation is --- just like all education you pay for (and I have done alot of corporate education!) ---- the time you invest is usually only worth it if you lift a few useful nuggets out of an otherwise dreary experience
your thoughts?
OK so I took the class
a couple of observations
In my opinion, its clearly for beginners and would have little or no value to an experienced (or even novice?) trader
But I think it has value to the completely uninformed:
2 examples:
1) There were about 200 people in the class. By a show of hands about 1/3 of them had money in mutual funds. I did an informal poll of people during breaks and at lunch (not very scientific) but about half of those I asked had not heard of ETFs (QQQQ, DIA, SPY etc). The instructor made the argument that ETF's are a better investment than mutual funds. I would agree.
Conclusion: For the folks in the population mentioned above --- acting on that information will probably be worth the 995 bucks they paid to hear it
Could they have gotten the information other ways?
Yes
But econmically - however you get it - even if you pay 995 bucks - it is still something you should know and take action on
2) I was unaware of the concept of a covered call
For the last 17 years I have been the typical 'buy and hold' investor. I put money into employer stocks via 401Ks and stock purchase plans - the vast majority in GE, IBM and Cisco - since that is the companies my wife and I have worked for.
Recently as those stocks have hit highs - I have sold them and moved the money into ETF's --- and plan to leave it there until I need it (maybe a 10-15 year horizon)
The instructor made the argument that if I was gonna leave my IRA money in an ETF and never touch it --- a covered call could yield me an extra 1-2% a month in an up or sideways market and leave me no worse off in a down market
I believe this is sound reasoning and I am going to try it
If it is and I generate 1-2% a month for half the months in a year --- on 500K in an IRA
Then the 995 bucks will have been worth it
Ok - so those are my first 2 positive observations
On the negative side -------
In 2 days and 16 hours of class time, they discussed concepts and techniques for maybe 5 of those hours
the rest was mainly self congratulation, old style tent-preaching type motivational speaches and purley silly (though entertaining) stories.
For instance the day 2 instructor devoted a full hour to a story about his daddy the pig farmer
laughing......
so my observation is --- just like all education you pay for (and I have done alot of corporate education!) ---- the time you invest is usually only worth it if you lift a few useful nuggets out of an otherwise dreary experience
your thoughts?
MG,
$995 for a weekend seminar, only 5-hours of basic information, the remainder wasteful fluff which included one hour discussing the instructors pig farmer father, seriously, need I say more? Do you seriously believe the quality of training will improve from this point forward? The value is not there.
Regarding Covered Calls, it is the most basic of strategies. You essentially have limited your upside potential and retained downside risk. Example, your stock drops and you were disciplined enough to exercise your stop loss and re-purchased your call, your long term position is liquidated and you potentially could turn any unrealized gains into a short term capital gain. A similar situation, the stock goes up significantly, your option is called your profit is limited to the option price and again your position is liquidated and realized gains taxed at short term tax rate, effectively reducing your return due to increased taxation in both cases.
(edit: missed the IRA portion, taxation not an issue, however, research what others say about covered calls) There is so much more to understand besides, just the strike price, in/out of the money, expiration date, implied volatility, etc... basic terminology is all you will get out of Investools...
At this stage, focus on understanding money and risk management, support and resistance, trends, basic pattern recognition, discipline, psychology, etc... become consistently profit in equities, ETF's etc...(ON PAPER) before even considering options, and heaven forbid futures or leverage...
Self instruction it is the best teacher, if an individual requires hand holding (which is all Investools offers) then the stock market may not be the best venue.
You seem reasonable and capable of research, utilize your skills.
Review these peoples post, Anekdoten, NihabaAshi, Stealth Trader, HolyGrail, old trader, Kiwi trader, Nitro, AustinP, Gnome to name a few.... it may take many weeks, but the insight is invaluable.
The stock market requires considerably more than red and green arrows... most will not be prepared sufficiently to survive in the stock market with an investools "education" they will be lambs, waiting to be shorn....
No doubt you will come to the same conclusion...
$995 for a weekend seminar, only 5-hours of basic information, the remainder wasteful fluff which included one hour discussing the instructors pig farmer father, seriously, need I say more? Do you seriously believe the quality of training will improve from this point forward? The value is not there.
Regarding Covered Calls, it is the most basic of strategies. You essentially have limited your upside potential and retained downside risk. Example, your stock drops and you were disciplined enough to exercise your stop loss and re-purchased your call, your long term position is liquidated and you potentially could turn any unrealized gains into a short term capital gain. A similar situation, the stock goes up significantly, your option is called your profit is limited to the option price and again your position is liquidated and realized gains taxed at short term tax rate, effectively reducing your return due to increased taxation in both cases.
(edit: missed the IRA portion, taxation not an issue, however, research what others say about covered calls) There is so much more to understand besides, just the strike price, in/out of the money, expiration date, implied volatility, etc... basic terminology is all you will get out of Investools...
At this stage, focus on understanding money and risk management, support and resistance, trends, basic pattern recognition, discipline, psychology, etc... become consistently profit in equities, ETF's etc...(ON PAPER) before even considering options, and heaven forbid futures or leverage...
Self instruction it is the best teacher, if an individual requires hand holding (which is all Investools offers) then the stock market may not be the best venue.
You seem reasonable and capable of research, utilize your skills.
Review these peoples post, Anekdoten, NihabaAshi, Stealth Trader, HolyGrail, old trader, Kiwi trader, Nitro, AustinP, Gnome to name a few.... it may take many weeks, but the insight is invaluable.
The stock market requires considerably more than red and green arrows... most will not be prepared sufficiently to survive in the stock market with an investools "education" they will be lambs, waiting to be shorn....
No doubt you will come to the same conclusion...
Admittedly, I didn't read every post in this thread, but I read enough... Here's my take on Investools:
I was recently asked by a friend of my family about how to get her money back from investools. I briefly told her that I honestly knew nothing about the company, but that if she feels she was scammed, that she should try to contact the FTC to file a complaint about the company. After that brief conversation, I had another conversation with her about the companies history with consumer complaints. IT IS BROAD. However, when I began digging into what little knowledge she was provided by the company in exchange for her money, it became clear (at least to me) that she will not be getting ANY money returned to her from Investools. She was provided with VERY BASIC knowledge of investing, and in return paid significantly more than she should have. Was she ripped off? In my opinion, VERY MUCH SO! But, that's just it, my opinion is that of a professional equities trader, not a consumer. Ma and Pa Smith from "Wherever, NY" didn't know anything at all about investing before going to Investools, and after spending all that money they seem to be very satisfied with their "ROI" that Investools supplied.
So, if you're interested in INTIMATELY learning how to become a successful investor, or more importantly a successful trader, then you should most definitely NOT invest in Investools. Instead, go to some of the TradersExpos (tradersexpo.com) and take the FREE seminars the first time. If you like what you see, then pay the $50-$500 for the multi-day seminars. From what I've read about the 2-5 hours of actual knowledge you receive in those Investools weekend seminars, they will not even compare to what you can get at the pay seminars from tradersexpo. Although the "mentors" running the individual seminars will usually plug their own books, it won't be a high-pressure sales tactic. The other thing you should consider, is that the authors who are there mentoring are proven traders and investors who took the time to WRITE A BOOK. That can't be said about Investools coaches. They get paid to teach, and they learn what they teach by going through an orientation through Investools. That orientation is designed to train them to teach paying customers the Investools source material, NOT how to make money through investing or trading. Think about it... First, though, you should pick up Introductory books for investing. Then graduate to DVDs. If you're not interested in becoming a statistic of a SCAM, then DON'T USE INVESTOOLS. Use your head instead.
I was recently asked by a friend of my family about how to get her money back from investools. I briefly told her that I honestly knew nothing about the company, but that if she feels she was scammed, that she should try to contact the FTC to file a complaint about the company. After that brief conversation, I had another conversation with her about the companies history with consumer complaints. IT IS BROAD. However, when I began digging into what little knowledge she was provided by the company in exchange for her money, it became clear (at least to me) that she will not be getting ANY money returned to her from Investools. She was provided with VERY BASIC knowledge of investing, and in return paid significantly more than she should have. Was she ripped off? In my opinion, VERY MUCH SO! But, that's just it, my opinion is that of a professional equities trader, not a consumer. Ma and Pa Smith from "Wherever, NY" didn't know anything at all about investing before going to Investools, and after spending all that money they seem to be very satisfied with their "ROI" that Investools supplied.
So, if you're interested in INTIMATELY learning how to become a successful investor, or more importantly a successful trader, then you should most definitely NOT invest in Investools. Instead, go to some of the TradersExpos (tradersexpo.com) and take the FREE seminars the first time. If you like what you see, then pay the $50-$500 for the multi-day seminars. From what I've read about the 2-5 hours of actual knowledge you receive in those Investools weekend seminars, they will not even compare to what you can get at the pay seminars from tradersexpo. Although the "mentors" running the individual seminars will usually plug their own books, it won't be a high-pressure sales tactic. The other thing you should consider, is that the authors who are there mentoring are proven traders and investors who took the time to WRITE A BOOK. That can't be said about Investools coaches. They get paid to teach, and they learn what they teach by going through an orientation through Investools. That orientation is designed to train them to teach paying customers the Investools source material, NOT how to make money through investing or trading. Think about it... First, though, you should pick up Introductory books for investing. Then graduate to DVDs. If you're not interested in becoming a statistic of a SCAM, then DON'T USE INVESTOOLS. Use your head instead.
2Many,,
I agree with all of your points --- and Im going to look into the expos for whatever low cost information they provide
Thats a great insight, and I appreciate your sharing it
Observations on Investools
I went into the 2 day (995 bucks) course anticipating a hard sell.
By hard sell I mean the kind of hard sell you can get if you go down to Cancun and the guy selling condo timeshares offers you $200 cash and a free breakfast if you will sit through a 90 minute 'presentation' on condo timeshares
The 90 minute 'presentation' is a 3 hour gauntlet where they throw one high pressure sales guy at you after another, intending to sell you 'something' 'somehow' before you escape
The Investools pitch turned out to be very different. It is a soft sell
They generate enthusiasm by making it look like easy money (caveat emptor)
I noticed the basic message was:
"we know how to do this and we can teach you"
rather than
"we have a secret system that you can only get if you pay us"
It struck me as odd that maybe 30 people in the room instantly signed up for the PhD course at 25 thousand bucks ----- without ever even going home and trying the stuff they had just paid 995 bucks for -----
but hey, to each their own
I will say that Investools enthusiastic message did get me thinking I can actually acquire these skills- and I am more knowledgable than I was before I took the course
But I would concur that paying $25K sight unseen is foolishly optimistic
So I am taking the following steps
1) I have a good friend who is an options trader - she has agreed to teach me basic options trading for free --- and has invited me to look at her trades on a day to day basis
2) There have been great posts here by yourself and others offering well reasoned advice and book references etc. I plan to take advantage of them
3) I am using the investools toolsuite (hell, I paid for it) by paper trading. I am going to report the actual results here with my impressions. I will be interested in the thoughts of the folks here as I report on my personal results during the paper trading
Thanks again for your thoughtful comments
I agree with all of your points --- and Im going to look into the expos for whatever low cost information they provide
Thats a great insight, and I appreciate your sharing it
Observations on Investools
I went into the 2 day (995 bucks) course anticipating a hard sell.
By hard sell I mean the kind of hard sell you can get if you go down to Cancun and the guy selling condo timeshares offers you $200 cash and a free breakfast if you will sit through a 90 minute 'presentation' on condo timeshares
The 90 minute 'presentation' is a 3 hour gauntlet where they throw one high pressure sales guy at you after another, intending to sell you 'something' 'somehow' before you escape
The Investools pitch turned out to be very different. It is a soft sell
They generate enthusiasm by making it look like easy money (caveat emptor)
I noticed the basic message was:
"we know how to do this and we can teach you"
rather than
"we have a secret system that you can only get if you pay us"
It struck me as odd that maybe 30 people in the room instantly signed up for the PhD course at 25 thousand bucks ----- without ever even going home and trying the stuff they had just paid 995 bucks for -----
but hey, to each their own
I will say that Investools enthusiastic message did get me thinking I can actually acquire these skills- and I am more knowledgable than I was before I took the course
But I would concur that paying $25K sight unseen is foolishly optimistic
So I am taking the following steps
1) I have a good friend who is an options trader - she has agreed to teach me basic options trading for free --- and has invited me to look at her trades on a day to day basis
2) There have been great posts here by yourself and others offering well reasoned advice and book references etc. I plan to take advantage of them
3) I am using the investools toolsuite (hell, I paid for it) by paper trading. I am going to report the actual results here with my impressions. I will be interested in the thoughts of the folks here as I report on my personal results during the paper trading
Thanks again for your thoughtful comments
one of the sales pitches in the Investools class was for ThinkorSwim
Discount online brokerage that lets you use a paper trading system online if you keep 3k in a brokerage account there
I like to use the paper trading system --- to figure this stuff out
Anyone know of any other paper trading system I can use that doesnt have strings attached?
just curious
Discount online brokerage that lets you use a paper trading system online if you keep 3k in a brokerage account there
I like to use the paper trading system --- to figure this stuff out
Anyone know of any other paper trading system I can use that doesnt have strings attached?
just curious
Actually, there are quite a few. Most use delayed or historic data. There are a lot of brokers that allow you to use real-time data for paper trading if you have an account with the minimum balance, which is often less than $3k, but you'll have to dig a little because I pay absolutely no attention to paper trading...
Which brings me to my next piece of advice... paper trading is almost always seen as (obviously) the best way to get your feet wet as a beginner, but what most (all) new traders do not understand is that paper trading shelters your emotions and allows you to make decisions, often split-second decisions, with little or no consequence to the end result. In addition to inconsequential bad decision making, large wins based on questionable decisions will boost your ego to overloaded proportions (this isn't reserved for paper trading alone) and in the long run that can be very damaging to the young trader's psyche. My suggestion is that beginners take the appropriate amount of time to learn how the markets function intimately. That doesn't mean days or weeks, that means learn it part-time while keeping your day job. Most beginners DO NOT want to hear that, and in those numbers lies the answer to the question: "Why do so many traders fail?" ...Then, when you think you know what its all about (NOTE: you don't, and never truly will) go get your feet wet with small amounts of REAL money on the line. You won't make or lose very much, but its enough to add the type of emotions to the mix that you'll be encountering everyday of your career.
You're welcome. And to any & all beginners out there, I chronicle my best/most insightful posts on EliteTrader in a thread called: "So you want to be a Stock Trader?" It's in the "Career Trader" section under the "Trading for a Living" forum. Use ET's search feature (top, right) or use this link if you'd like to read more of my opinions about starting out in Trading and Investing (mostly trading) It's really an ego stroke for me, so drop by and say thanks! Just kidding, but seriously... it is...
http://www.elitetrader.com/vb/showthread.php?s=&postid=1652164#post1652164
How does one determine if an investools seminar is worth the money, without going to the seminar? what about better trades or optionetics?
Has anyone read the "report" at http://www.djot.com/investools ?
I just want an education that doesn't cost an arm and a leg.
Has anyone read the "report" at http://www.djot.com/investools ?
I just want an education that doesn't cost an arm and a leg.
Well, for a definate "uneducated" take...because I am new to learning to trade, Investools does a great marketing job..
I didn't buy in though. I just yesterday went to a Motivational Seminar, honestly only to see Colin Powell, Zig Ziglar, & Robert Schuller speak. I had no idea that I was going to be "sold" on the likes of Investools & another Money Merge Mortgage Account Program... I can say that I am, and was "enticed" by these prospects, and I did already have a foliofn account, only as a "watch account" I started a few months ago.
One note, I'm a little, well, a lot dissapointed in the Motivational tour, in the fact that they use these opportunities to "lure" in prospects for these for profit businesses. It was actually Investment best selling author Phil Town doing the selling (hype)for Investools. Actually, they're "One Day Only Special" was for $1000 bucks, you and a friend got all the bells & whistles, coaching, web access, software, etc. (One point that Phil makes all the time is only buying stock "on Sale") Well, I didn't jump in at the chance to spend my Grand without further research. (My Dad always told me that a deal today can always be had later)But I can tell you that I'd guess to say at least 200 people out of the 5,000 or so at the seminar did take advantage...not bad, a cool $200,000.00 in one afternoon for Phil & Investools..
I'm glad I did some research first, and thank you all for your insights, both Pro & Con. I think I'll stick with my first instict, which was read some books first, and figure out a way to do the research myself, and understand the "indicators" to make good decisions, rather than fork out thousands up front for my education.
I didn't buy in though. I just yesterday went to a Motivational Seminar, honestly only to see Colin Powell, Zig Ziglar, & Robert Schuller speak. I had no idea that I was going to be "sold" on the likes of Investools & another Money Merge Mortgage Account Program... I can say that I am, and was "enticed" by these prospects, and I did already have a foliofn account, only as a "watch account" I started a few months ago.
One note, I'm a little, well, a lot dissapointed in the Motivational tour, in the fact that they use these opportunities to "lure" in prospects for these for profit businesses. It was actually Investment best selling author Phil Town doing the selling (hype)for Investools. Actually, they're "One Day Only Special" was for $1000 bucks, you and a friend got all the bells & whistles, coaching, web access, software, etc. (One point that Phil makes all the time is only buying stock "on Sale") Well, I didn't jump in at the chance to spend my Grand without further research. (My Dad always told me that a deal today can always be had later)But I can tell you that I'd guess to say at least 200 people out of the 5,000 or so at the seminar did take advantage...not bad, a cool $200,000.00 in one afternoon for Phil & Investools..
I'm glad I did some research first, and thank you all for your insights, both Pro & Con. I think I'll stick with my first instict, which was read some books first, and figure out a way to do the research myself, and understand the "indicators" to make good decisions, rather than fork out thousands up front for my education.