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Intelligent Design is not creationism
- Thread starter Teleologist
- Start date
If they exist in non-physical space, then they are not measurable and cannot be assigned a probability.Quote from ZZZzzzzzzz:
Science can't measure concepts either, but these concepts do exist in a non physical space.
If they can be measured, then please provide a scientifically verifiable experiment with which we can measure concepts and thereby assign a probability.
Quote from kjkent1:
KJ: I agree -- under such a scenario, the probability of random accident and God did it are both possibilities which cannot be dismissed. But, if it is true that God is part of the natural universe, then where is the physical evidence of God?
Hans: Panentheists would say the entire Universe is evidence of God, what with the existence of the Universe being such a miracle and all. Yer standard God fearin' Christian might say something like "God can be both of the natural Universe and apart fom it and may manifest in a non-material way as a synergy of forces or principles, or as the meta-principle.".
____
KJ: Science can measure the amino acids. It can't measure the spirit force. And, if it can't measure it, then it can't assign a probability, so we're back where we started.
Hans: Right. God as possibility from the perspective of We Who Don't Have The Ultimate Answer, science notwithstanding.
____
KJ: Some contend that proof of God is found in symbolisms, such as love, thoughts, mathematics, etc., because these things have no physical manifestation.
However, I suggest that in the absence of human physical existence, none of these symbolisms would exists, because all of them exist from moment to moment in the electrochemical reactions which are part of the human brain.
Were no human left alive, the books, art, science, religion, philosophy, etc., while written symbolically for a future reader unknown, would all be dead until that reader appeared with the necessary synaptic powers to raise the symbols beyond their written status.
What makes the symbolisms real is the energy and matter that is the human brain -- not some unmeasurable spirit force.
Hans: Well, now.. yer getting into some nitty gritty here, KJ.
Maybe electrochemical brain events are the bridge between mind and world. Consciousness is as mysterious as anything we've ever encountered and/or pondered. Atheists love to point out that we anthropomorphize God, but maybe this humanizing God isn't so goofy considering that we have mind and that mind may be what God's about.
And let's not forget... why would a world of dumb matter give rise to mind - a reality that has nothing in common with anything in the material world?
And how about your mathematics? If a tree fell in the forest and there was no one there to hear it, would 1 + 1 still = 2? Here, in 1 + 1 = 2, we have a truth not even God could override and an operation that occurs outside time. Mathematics can be a good model for Eternity.
And what else.. ? Well, that's enough for now. I need a drink.
KJ: All in my opinion, of course.
Hans: And that goes double for me. Hm. A double.. that should do it.
So the pure mathematical concept and equation of 1+1=2 can't be assigned a probability of being 100% true apart from physical experimentation to confirm it as always true?
Too funny...and ideas and concepts don't exist with any probability of being true or false because we can't measure them physically.....what a riot.
No, measuring electrical impulses in the brain is not measuring a thought or an idea/concept.
It is just a gas watching you spin your wheels, when every single physical tool of science is completely dependent on the human mind to be of any use, yet the human mind, human consciousness, ideas, and concepts are immeasurable as to their truth?
Don't you get it? Everything about science that is understood by anyone is a product of human mind's understanding, everything...
It is all about mind, the big elephant in the room that the materialists and naturalists want to pretend and act as if isn't there...
So, which came first?
The Universe, or the math of the Universe?
Too funny...and ideas and concepts don't exist with any probability of being true or false because we can't measure them physically.....what a riot.
No, measuring electrical impulses in the brain is not measuring a thought or an idea/concept.
It is just a gas watching you spin your wheels, when every single physical tool of science is completely dependent on the human mind to be of any use, yet the human mind, human consciousness, ideas, and concepts are immeasurable as to their truth?
Don't you get it? Everything about science that is understood by anyone is a product of human mind's understanding, everything...
It is all about mind, the big elephant in the room that the materialists and naturalists want to pretend and act as if isn't there...
So, which came first?
The Universe, or the math of the Universe?
Quote from kjkent1:
If they exist in non-physical space, then they are not measurable and cannot be assigned a probability.
If they can be measured, then please provide a scientifically verifiable experiment with which we can measure concepts and thereby assign a probability.
A1: 1+1=2 is symbolism to replace two discrete elements of undefined but equal quality ("1"), and which, when aggregated ("+") can be symbolically represented ("=") as "2".Quote from ZZZzzzzzzz:
So the pure mathematical concept and equation of 1+1=2 can't be assigned a probability of being 100% true apart from physical experimentation to confirm it as always true?
Too funny...and ideas and concepts don't exist with any probability of being true or false because we can't measure them physically.....what a riot.
No, measuring electrical impulses in the brain is not measuring a thought or an idea/concept.
It is just a gas watching you spin your wheels, when every single physical tool of science is completely dependent on the human mind to be of any use, yet the human mind, human consciousness, ideas, and concepts are immeasurable as to their truth?
Don't you get it? Everything about science that is understood by anyone is a product of human mind's understanding, everything...
It is all about mind, the big elephant in the room that the materialists and naturalists want to pretend and act as if isn't there...
So, which came first?
The Universe, or the math of the Universe?
A2: I get it.
A3: The universe.
Hans: Panentheists would say the entire Universe is evidence of God, what with the existence of the Universe being such a miracle and all. Yer standard God fearin' Christian might say something like "God can be both of the natural Universe and apart fom it and may manifest in a non-material way as a synergy of forces or principles, or as the meta-principle.".
KJ: The matter and energy in the universe is evidence of the matter and energy in the universe. Expanding these things to mean more is philosphy, not science -- and the prevention of such expansions is precisely why science was invented: to make the search for universal truth objective.
Admittedly, scientists frequently fail in this goal, but that's the goal, regardless.
____
Hans: Right. God as possibility from the perspective of We Who Don't Have The Ultimate Answer, science notwithstanding.
KJ: God is a subjective possibility, because we can individually believe in Him. God is objectively impossible, unless someone can provide a means by which to objectively measure God.
____
Hans: Well, now.. yer getting into some nitty gritty here, KJ.
Maybe electrochemical brain events are the bridge between mind and world. Consciousness is as mysterious as anything we've ever encountered and/or pondered. Atheists love to point out that we anthropomorphize God, but maybe this humanizing God isn't so goofy considering that we have mind and that mind may be what God's about.
KJ: Maybe. But, without some measuring tool, there's no objective means of proving it, thus no means of assigning a probability.
Hans: And let's not forget... why would a world of dumb matter give rise to mind - a reality that has nothing in common with anything in the material world?
KJ: Because it can. Information gain from a random start via natural selection is mathematically proven -- and, empirically observed.
Hans: And how about your mathematics? If a tree fell in the forest and there was no one there to hear it, would 1 + 1 still = 2? Here, in 1 + 1 = 2, we have a truth not even God could override and an operation that occurs outside time. Mathematics can be a good model for Eternity.
KJ: If God is God, then He can make 1+1 = anything He wants, whenever and wherever He wants. God is limitless, thus He is not bound by any universal truth, because He is the sole arbiter of what truth is.
Hans: And what else.. ? Well, that's enough for now. I need a drink.
KJ: Likewise.
KJ: The matter and energy in the universe is evidence of the matter and energy in the universe. Expanding these things to mean more is philosphy, not science -- and the prevention of such expansions is precisely why science was invented: to make the search for universal truth objective.
Admittedly, scientists frequently fail in this goal, but that's the goal, regardless.
____
Hans: Right. God as possibility from the perspective of We Who Don't Have The Ultimate Answer, science notwithstanding.
KJ: God is a subjective possibility, because we can individually believe in Him. God is objectively impossible, unless someone can provide a means by which to objectively measure God.
____
Hans: Well, now.. yer getting into some nitty gritty here, KJ.
Maybe electrochemical brain events are the bridge between mind and world. Consciousness is as mysterious as anything we've ever encountered and/or pondered. Atheists love to point out that we anthropomorphize God, but maybe this humanizing God isn't so goofy considering that we have mind and that mind may be what God's about.
KJ: Maybe. But, without some measuring tool, there's no objective means of proving it, thus no means of assigning a probability.
Hans: And let's not forget... why would a world of dumb matter give rise to mind - a reality that has nothing in common with anything in the material world?
KJ: Because it can. Information gain from a random start via natural selection is mathematically proven -- and, empirically observed.
Hans: And how about your mathematics? If a tree fell in the forest and there was no one there to hear it, would 1 + 1 still = 2? Here, in 1 + 1 = 2, we have a truth not even God could override and an operation that occurs outside time. Mathematics can be a good model for Eternity.
KJ: If God is God, then He can make 1+1 = anything He wants, whenever and wherever He wants. God is limitless, thus He is not bound by any universal truth, because He is the sole arbiter of what truth is.
Hans: And what else.. ? Well, that's enough for now. I need a drink.
KJ: Likewise.
Dodge.
Okay, once again:
Which came first, the Universe or the math of the Universe.
Oh, and symbolism itself is non physical, it is an idea only...
Okay, once again:
Which came first, the Universe or the math of the Universe.
Oh, and symbolism itself is non physical, it is an idea only...
Quote from kjkent1:
A1: 1+1=2 is symbolism to replace two discrete elements of undefined but equal quality ("1"), and which, when aggregated ("+") can be symbolically represented ("=") as "2".
A2: I get it.
A3: The universe.
Quote from kjkent1:
Accidental development of life is possible, and therefore a probability can be assigned.
Whereas the creator, being the set of infinitity, cannot be assigned a probability.
There was a thought process leading up to the Big Bang(s). Science will never be able to measure it. It is barely able to deal with effect, let alone cause. But the mind was in such conflict that it was like hell. The mind had already split four times and the solution seemed to be that it should split infinitely if possible.
Once the fireworks started, it was all over. The unfathomable force of energy was so tremendous that it predetermined all physical laws and the fate of every cell and molecule, how each one would evolve and which direction they would go. Everything that seems to occur since was already been set in motion at that instant, and in fact could not occur any other way. Everything that happened would have had to happen exactly the way it did, no matter what.
In a instant, it was all over. But in that instant, every possible iteration of the theme of separation was played out in every way shape and form. Time is simply this single instant, divided and subdivided, one instant within another. There is only one time, and it is officially finished. The mind that did this solved it's problem after seeing where separation goes. It reassembled itself by accessing that part of it's mind that retained memory of it's original condition.
The effects of time linger as a relatively real phenomenon for each aspect until each aspect of the divided mind remembers it's original - eternal - condition. In time, this is not a simultaneous remembrance. And yet, at any given moment, the mind that makes this world is in a slow, imperceptible process of awakening from a kind of sleep that separation induces. Each aspect that awakens symbolizes the awakening of the whole.
The end is known. Meanwhile, the predetermined effects play themselves out like a very intense movie. It's a multiple choice script for each player, but always the same, predetermined outcome. Players are free to make a choice to leave. That is really the only truly "free" choice they have. Even this has been determined even though the speed is set by players' choice.
To wish someone "Godspeed" is simply to remind them that it's within their power to accelerate their exodus from this quandary by turning their attention to the truth about their strength.
Jesus
Quote from ZZZzzzzzzz:
Dodge.
Okay, once again:
Which came first, the Universe or the math of the Universe.
Oh, and symbolism itself is non physical, it is an idea only...
Asked and answered.
As for your statement that symbolism is non-physical. Well, thanks for your opinion, but I don't agree. In my opinion, there is no idea without the electrochemical actions of a human brain to thunk it.
Thus, in the absence of the human species, there are no ideas at all (at least no human ideas -- there may be dolphin ideas -- which could even be thunk on porpoise).:eek:
Quote from kjkent1:
If they exist in non-physical space, then they are not measurable and cannot be assigned a probability.
If they can be measured, then please provide a scientifically verifiable experiment with which we can measure concepts and thereby assign a probability.
Ok, this is about as scientific as it's going to get...
Let's take a random sample of any image in your near environment. Let's take a tree for example. It is a concept made into a symbol. It stands for something. But you're not sure. Right now, to you, it looks like a solid form that probably evolved from some simple life form. The process how it got there does not change the fact that it is an image that you have made on some level of your mind. And what is an image? Nothing.
Now gaze at it and say slowly, "This tree is an image I made". Pick something else at random and say slowly, "That mountain is an image I made". Do this for one minute, three times a day, or as much as you feel comfortable doing so. This introductory idea to the process I'll call 'image making' won't mean much to you until you begin to see little edges of light around the same familiar objects which you see now. You will understand once you see the light. It is a sign that you are opening your eyes at last. This is the beginning of the restoration of real vision which will come quickly once you've reached this stage.
This exercise will show that simply changing your mind about what you see will gradually reveal something beyond what you see now. It won't yet bring the knowledge which brings the probability of God to 100% for you, but it will prepare the way.
What would motivate you to do this with persistence? But if you did it, you will repeat what others have found. And if you repeatedly see the light, the probability God is will rise for you. As memory is restored, the concept that stands behind the symbol will reveal itself.
Jesus