Intelligent Design is not creationism

Z:So if all humans vanished, there would be no ideas remaining?

KJ: No human ideas.

Z: And if all radios vanished, there would be no radio waves traveling in space?

KJ: Radio waves can be measured as being independent of radios. Ideas cannot be measured independent of a conscious mind.

Z:Quite funny.

KJ: I agree.

KJ:"Thus, in the absence of the human species, there are no ideas at all at least no human ideas"

Z: That would mean the theory of evolution would not be true in an independent manner at all, the concept of random chance would not exist without a human being having "thunk it" which means that all this evolutionary babble is nothing but a product of the human mind, not a natural process that existed, or exists independent of the human mind's sustaining an idea of it.

KJ: Evolution would exist, as would random chance. There would, however, be no "theory" of either.

Z: Mathematical truths would cease to exist as ideas because no one could think them?

KJ: To the extent that the math models a physical property, the "truth" of the math would be inchoate. But without a mind to discover that truth/relationship and form symbols to describe it, there would b no mathematics.

Z:Again, too funny.

KJ: Again, I agree.

Z:All scientific theory (just a bunch of ideas) are not actual discoveries of that which exists independent of human thought are just products of human mind, not a true condition that preceded human mind's thought process. Those who promote theories are not actually examining fact of nature independent of human mind, they are just advancing a byproduct of some electrical impulses.

KJ: The relationships exist as physical properties independent of their discoverer. Nuclear fusion exists, regardless of any scientist. Discoveries, however, depend entirely upon the existence of a discoverer.

Z:Yall are pee in your pants funny.

KJ: Ditto

Z: In this physical universe, is there anything that can come into being without the potential to come into being first preceding it?

KJ: The potential for the universe to form could have existed eternally. Just as you claim God exists eternally.

Z: Show how actuality comes to be without the potential to come to be first.

KJ: Irrelevant, because I don't deny potential with regard to universe formation.

Z: The Universe came into being from no potential (i.e. the math) for a Universe?

KJ: Asked and answered.

Z:You really do believe in magic...or the cart before the horse.

KJ: Not really. Magic would be a manifestation of something from nothing at all. A "potential" is not nothing. An electric battery stores potential energy. Until you close the circuit, the electrical energy is stored and waiting.

Magic would be a battery without any stored energy, which will produce electricity when the circuit is closed.

Big difference.
 
Quote from Hansel H:

It's true that measurements are essential to the conduct of science, but science is only one specialized way of experiencing truth. How about your own subjective experiences - do they not exist? Even if we ignore the abstract values of your last post, it's undeniable that the specific configuration of the onscreen black markings on the white background are the result of unmeasurable events that took place in your mind.

The probability of thought is 1.0 . We know this because specific thoughts can correspond to highly specific adjustments in the physical world. For instance, the thoughts of engineers result in bridges, skyscrapers, microchips, etc. - things that couldn't reasonably be regarded as simply occurring through random chance.

We know that will exists because the weightlifter hoists a massive weight over his head because he wills it so. And what about the feelings of a grieving mother? Are those feelings not part of the totality of reality even though they are confined to her experience?

There's so much more to truth than that which can be gauged by science.
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My own subjective experiences exist only at the moment of their occurrence. After which, it's all just electrochemical memory.

The black marks on the screen are the product of my brain's ability to process information and transmit it. That the information is complex, does not necessarily render it magical.

The actions of the weightlifter and the grieving mother are the result of 4 billion years of evolutionary change directed at promoting survival through chemical reactions which signal fear of things perceived as bad and desire for things perceived as good.

Humans just add a little more spice to the process. Ultimately, it's the same as what other, less sentient creatures do.
 
Quote from kjkent1:

Nevermind that...check out this:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/earth/ma...&grid=&xml=/earth/2007/12/23/scicosmos123.xml
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zzwwwifff... am back for a sec

yup, T-duality rocks!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/T-duality

wait & see for the Higgs, El Naschie's E-infinity theory, the hottest thing out there right now, also predicts it, and much more:
http://www.sciencedirect.com/scienc...serid=10&md5=28d75fd7c830e81b3ae158ecd4c72e89

http://www.sciencedirect.com/scienc...serid=10&md5=5bdd1f03b0c193691c8971ee03b7f9f0
 
Quote from traderNik:

It's funny... there comes a point in time when the statements made by this person became so bizarre, so detached from reality, that you realize with stunning clarity that Rearden Metal has it 100% right and we are all actually getting taken for a ride.

This statement doesn't need to be dismantled. There is no need to point out the several ways in which it doesn't make any sense. It is beyond absurd. Z purposely abjures any attempt at semantic consistency and simply strings a series of words together which seem to contradict the statements of his opponents.

I'm telling you guys... we're all being had and Z is having the last laugh. This statement proves it.
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Some people like z are so narcissistic, and yet so insecure, that they need to get attention, even if it means acting like a moron/clown to do so. And people like that go on ignore.
 
Quote from kjkent1:

My own subjective experiences exist only at the moment of their occurrence. After which, it's all just electrochemical memory.

The black marks on the screen are the product of my brain's ability to process information and transmit it. That the information is complex, does not necessarily render it magical.

The actions of the weightlifter and the grieving mother are the result of 4 billion years of evolutionary change directed at promoting survival through chemical reactions which signal fear of things perceived as bad and desire for things perceived as good.

Humans just add a little more spice to the process. Ultimately, it's the same as what other, less sentient creatures do.
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Ephemeral existence is still existence. How many quantum entities are transitory? Is anything everlasting? In general, any event or physical thing exists only for the time it occurs although events and physical things virtually define the natural world.

I'm not arguing for magic ( magic as pejorative ), just a relationship between subjective events and the natural world. If you consider subjective events as occurring outside the natural world then you're arguing for existence on a plane other than that of the natural world ( because subjective events surely do occur ).
 
Quote from Hansel H:

Ephemeral existence is still existence. How many quantum entities are transitory? Is anything everlasting? In general, any event or physical thing exists only for the time it occurs although events and physical things virtually define the natural world.

I'm not arguing for magic ( magic as pejorative ), just a relationship between subjective events and the natural world. If you consider subjective events as occurring outside the natural world then you're arguing for existence on a plane other than that of the natural world ( because subjective events surely do occur ).
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Ultimately, everything is belief-based, because we are entirely subject to our own senses, which are easily fooled.

But, if we take the position that everything is subjective, then science grinds to a halt, because then nothing can be measured.

God could exist and be entirely responsible for everything. He just can't be measured -- that's why we invented "faith."

I still don't see any rationale for inferring the existence of God from the observations of the physical universe. But, that doesn't mean I'm right. I could be sitting on an eternal pile of hot coals someday. Or, maybe I'll just blow away in the wind.

Who knows...
 
Quote from kjkent1:

Ultimately, everything is belief-based, because we are entirely subject to our own senses, which are easily fooled.
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Exactly. It's a trick with intent to fool. It's one mind tricking itself using the concept of many to accomplish this. The mind conjures objectivity to mask subjectivity. Magically, it makes something out of nothing. Everything is belief based...except reality.

Jesus
 
Quote from kjkent1:


But, if we take the position that everything is subjective, then science grinds to a halt, because then nothing can be measured.

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Yes. Why measure nothing? After you measure it, it's still nothing no matter how sacred are the measuring devices.

Jesus
 
Quote from kjkent1:

God could exist and be entirely responsible for everything. He just can't be measured -- that's why we invented "faith."
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Yes. Faith is an invention of a mind that does not know. Such is the 'conscious' mind that makes this universe. Faith is a tool it uses to make it all up. Faith delivers what is desired other than reality. The universe, then, is the evidence of an ancient wish. The mind that makes it no longer wants it. In time it shifts gradually, one aspect at a time, over millions of years. But time is an illusion it made, and it was not absent from reality but for a single instant...not enough to make any real change to what is. It's all over...past tense. There is only now.

Jesus
 
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