You are using an out of date browser. It may not display this or other websites correctly.
You should upgrade or use an alternative browser.
You should upgrade or use an alternative browser.
History and Movies
- Thread starter Mav88
- Start date
If we can eliminate the number of accidents we'd have their kill ratio.
Yes, but let's give them benefit of doubt and put the kill ratio at 2:1, it's odd though that they had no aces.
Pretty good but probably not the best of the era especialy given that the bulk of their kills were from late 1944 to the end of the war when the Luftwaffe had already been beaten into a shadow of its old self and pilot quality going down fast. In operation Bodenplatte on 1 January 1945 it was obvious that even with a well planned operation that the Luftwaffe was already beaten.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Bodenplatte
The operation achieved tactical surprise,[141] but it was undone by poor execution and low pilot skill (owing to poor training).[141] The operation failed to achieve its aim[1] and that failure was very costly to German air power.[2] Some of the units of the RAF and USAAF on the receiving end of Bodenplatte had been badly hit, others not so badly, but most had sustained some hurt. The Germans, however, launched Bodenplatte under a set of conditions, such as poor planning and low pilot skill, which clearly indicated any advantage gained would be outweighed by possible losses
It's a movie 'based on actual events' much like so many other movies. Why is that so wrong? Sure, most of us learned our history in school, heck even on the H channel, doesn't make the movie good or bad. The movie itself can do that of course. I remember way back when I saw Soldier Blue, at first it opened my eyes to how we plundered and killed the Native Americans. We didn't get taught too much about that side in school, more so these days I think.
A movie based on real events.
"Soldier Blue is a 1970 American Revisionist Western movie directed by Ralph Nelson and inspired by events of the 1864 Sand Creek massacre in the Colorado Territory.
The screenplay was written by John Gay based on the novel Arrow in the Sun by Theodore V. Olsen (republished as Soldier Blue after the movie was released). It starred Candice Bergen, Peter Strauss and Donald Pleasence. The title song was performed by Buffy Sainte-Marie.
In September 1970, Dotson Rader of The New York Times, wrote that Soldier Blue "must be numbered among the most significant, the most brutal and liberating, the most honest American films ever made". Wikipedia
c
A movie based on real events.
"Soldier Blue is a 1970 American Revisionist Western movie directed by Ralph Nelson and inspired by events of the 1864 Sand Creek massacre in the Colorado Territory.
The screenplay was written by John Gay based on the novel Arrow in the Sun by Theodore V. Olsen (republished as Soldier Blue after the movie was released). It starred Candice Bergen, Peter Strauss and Donald Pleasence. The title song was performed by Buffy Sainte-Marie.
In September 1970, Dotson Rader of The New York Times, wrote that Soldier Blue "must be numbered among the most significant, the most brutal and liberating, the most honest American films ever made". Wikipedia
c
Don't give our resident racist, RCG, too much thought. He's only behaving the way he was raised and the way other rasicsts like Jessie Jackson and Al Sharpton with a national forum continue to promote to the black community.Quote from Lucrum:
If you believe I actually said that then you are delusional and in need of both meds and counseling.
So what did Tuskegee really mean historically? 80 pilots destroying 250 planes total air and ground obviously meant little in the course of WWII, so its meaning was symbolic in that sense. the fact that it keeps getting rehashed is proof of that.
Consider that with only 80 guys, you were getting the best and brightest of the blacks available at the time since there was such a high symbolic value placed on that squadron. Todays military is considered by Blacks themselves to be a place where they a 'fair shake'. Having been closely associated with the military I can tell you that they get more than equality, affirmative action is alive and well. The military is 20% black, that tells you a lot right there.
Interestingly though in units where quality and skill are not sacrificed for social opportunity, like fighter pilots, blacks lag far behind. I can tell you that the Air Force goes out of its way to find and promote qualified blacks, but unlike cops or firefighters they will not lower their standards. Sadly the results are predictable. Only about 2% of pilots are black.
Now you can understand why blacks and Obama put such a high value on symbolism and exaggerating the real success
stories. Blacks just have not been able to compete well in anything involving techical skill. I really don't want it that way because it means that there isn't much hope for improvement. We will always have this hating minority who will never stop complaining instead of producing. Note the ever present spin and tone in the article below, it is always white racism that's the problem. Will we ever be able to be honest?
Consider that with only 80 guys, you were getting the best and brightest of the blacks available at the time since there was such a high symbolic value placed on that squadron. Todays military is considered by Blacks themselves to be a place where they a 'fair shake'. Having been closely associated with the military I can tell you that they get more than equality, affirmative action is alive and well. The military is 20% black, that tells you a lot right there.
Interestingly though in units where quality and skill are not sacrificed for social opportunity, like fighter pilots, blacks lag far behind. I can tell you that the Air Force goes out of its way to find and promote qualified blacks, but unlike cops or firefighters they will not lower their standards. Sadly the results are predictable. Only about 2% of pilots are black.
Now you can understand why blacks and Obama put such a high value on symbolism and exaggerating the real success
stories. Blacks just have not been able to compete well in anything involving techical skill. I really don't want it that way because it means that there isn't much hope for improvement. We will always have this hating minority who will never stop complaining instead of producing. Note the ever present spin and tone in the article below, it is always white racism that's the problem. Will we ever be able to be honest?
http://www.stripes.com/military-lif...ilots-land-in-air-force-navy-cockpits-1.11138About 20 percent of the U.S. military is black, compared to 13 percent of all Americans, according to recently released Defense Department statistics.
But in the two services with the majority of fixed-wing aircraft, the Navy and the Air Force, the percentage of black aviators is very small.
Navy statistics from the fourth quarter of 2002 show that of 8,557 pilots (16 percent of the officer corps), just 185 are black â 2 percent.
And in the Air Force, of 12,639 pilots (also 16.1 percent of the officer corps), just 236 officers are black pilots, or 2.1 percent.
The dearth of black pilots is hardly news. To the contrary, military officials have been aware of the phenomenon for decades.
âWe can go all the way back to the 1970s,â to trace the U.S. Air Forceâs efforts to increase the black pilot cadre, Brig. Gen. Leon Johnson, an Air Force Reserve fighter pilot and one of the militaryâs most prominent advocates for recruiting black pilots, said in a February interview.
In a landmark report published in 1999 by the Office of the Undersecretary of Defense for Personnel and Readiness titled âCareer Progression in Minority and Women Officersâ (the last time the topic has been addressed by the Defense Department), a section on aviation says, âof all minorities, the representation of blacks has remained stubbornly low over the last 15 years.â
Selection and training
Once blacks who want to be military aviators make it into college, the manner in which the military identifies, recruits, selects and trains its pilots might be a significant barrier to the stated goal of increasing the black flying cadre, the 1999 report said.
The services draw their pilot candidates from several different sources, including the âBig Three pipelines,â as Johnson called them.
Those pipelines are the service academies; Reserve Officer Training Corps, or ROTC, programs at mainstream colleges and universities; and direct commissioning via the officer training schools.
For both ROTC and academy students, the military selection process for flight school begins in the senior year of college, when selection boards take into account academic performance, leadership, faculty recommendations and extracurricular activities.
Students also take a battery of service-specific aviator tests.
The number of flight school slots available in any given year varies, depending on the needs of the services at the time.
Each college or university is allocated a limited number of slots for pilot trainees, Gen. Johnson said, âSo even though [candidates are] qualified, they may not be able to go.â
Richard Jones saw that happen to 12 of his best black friends in 2001, during his senior year at Grambling State University in Louisiana (Grambling is part of Americaâs network of almost 100 formally designated Historically Black Colleges and Universities).
All 13 friends sent their applications to the Air Forceâs pilot selection board, but only Jones was accepted to pilot training
Nope, no hope.
As of 2009 the percentage has actually fallen below 2%. Look at the dialogue though from black leaders. All the same shit, racism and slavery are why blacks cannot or will not perform well technically. This excuse making will NEVER lead to anything.
http://www.airforcetimes.com/news/2009/02/airforce_black_history_022109/
As of 2009 the percentage has actually fallen below 2%. Look at the dialogue though from black leaders. All the same shit, racism and slavery are why blacks cannot or will not perform well technically. This excuse making will NEVER lead to anything.
http://www.airforcetimes.com/news/2009/02/airforce_black_history_022109/
Racism in the Air Force is largely a thing of the past, but that doesnât mean all wrongs have been righted or that the issue doesnât merit discussion, says one of the serviceâs 12 black general officers and the head of its recruiting command.
Brig. Gen. A.J. Stewart sees February, designated as Black History Month, as an opportunity to talk frankly about the past and the importance of diversity.
âOne of the interesting questions that comes up every year is ... âWhy do we continue to have an African-American heritage month? I thought we were past these issues,â â Stewart said. âMy perspective on that is yes, we are no longer under the bonds of slavery, [and] we no longer have legal discrimination. ... However, for African-Americans in particular, we suffered very deep wounds for hundreds of years in this country, and while the wounds essentially have healed, theyâve left scars, and we are still in one sense recovering from this terrible experience.â
The Air Force has recruited in recent months more blacks than at any time since the start of the war in 2001, when all the services began experiencing lower percentages of black recruits.
Ahh, here, finally, is what you wanted to say all along.
No not really, it was someone drawing my attention to obama's flyover thing. It is always Blacks that will draw attention to race these days. We could not just have a movie about a fighter wing in WWII, it has to be a movie with a social statement about race so therefore I am going to comment on race as I see it. I'd much rather just have a good war movie.
If Wikipedia is correct, race is the sole reason for this unit's existence. So the "social statement" was made back in WWII.Quote from Mav88:
No not really, it was someone drawing my attention to obama's flyover thing. It is always Blacks that will draw attention to race these days. We could not just have a movie about a fighter wing in WWII, it has to be a movie with a social statement about race so therefore I am going to comment on race as I see it. I'd much rather just have a good war movie.
Correct, I should have said social statement about race relations today.
I know that discrimation existed then, I would even pay that leftist jerk Lucas the movie cash to watch a well made movie about Tuskegee. But why is there such a large surrounding race context today in 2012? My point is that it is really depressing that this issue will not die a natural death as it should. The accusations and complaining will never stop, all we can do is keep throwing money at them.
Consider the Japanese-american experience in WWII. They were actually put into prison camps. They also formed an all Japanese unit that fought very well on the ground in Italy. It's a good war story that we can look back on now and appreciate, however we don't get constant rehashing and racial accusations from them do we?
I know that discrimation existed then, I would even pay that leftist jerk Lucas the movie cash to watch a well made movie about Tuskegee. But why is there such a large surrounding race context today in 2012? My point is that it is really depressing that this issue will not die a natural death as it should. The accusations and complaining will never stop, all we can do is keep throwing money at them.
Consider the Japanese-american experience in WWII. They were actually put into prison camps. They also formed an all Japanese unit that fought very well on the ground in Italy. It's a good war story that we can look back on now and appreciate, however we don't get constant rehashing and racial accusations from them do we?