High-Frequency Trading Firm Pays $64.7 Million in Record Spoofing Penalty

This is my opinion, but these indexes and a lot of equities do not trade like markets anymore. There are human elements to a market that make something a market. When it's high speed robots trading against other high speed robots, not only is edge for the regular guy going away faster, but its no longer tracking the value of the thing. Why do you think value investing sticks to deeply undervalued stocks? Simply because with less analyst and news coverage there is significant edge in trading something the HFTs and big banks aren't looking at.

Take for example oil futures. There is a market there. Sure there is likely HFT arbitrage, but it's significantly less. There's not enough ability for the HFTs to manipulate it because there are other actors with just as much capital. Hedge desks from giant oil companies for example.

But when you look at the ES, YM, NQ, etc it's just noise. There's very little tradeable there because the indexes aren't tracking the market at large. Speculators serve an important purpose, but HFTs are not speculating. They're bouncing trades back in forth between each other, front running, and manipulating markets. Not in the "corner the silver market" manipulation. But in a "technologically lock everyone out of profit" sense.



This is the same argument penny stock gamblers use. it doesn't hold a whole lot of water.


manipulated penny stocks are the easiest stocks to trade.

instead of earning tons of money, many people lost tons of money because
- they entered far too late
- they failed to close position when price collapsed

That's where they blame manipulators instead of thanking manipulators.
 
Want to go back 1/8 min spread with specialists and pit???

Listening to the stories of pit traders makes me sad we no longer have this option. I don't really care so much about entry spread on contracts because futures to me is limited to spreads these days and I hold them for 1-3 months at a time. Of course entries are important, but 1/8 tick on an intra that returns 30-50% ROM is basically nothing. At least not at my account size.
 
Right, my point is that traders usually benefit from artificially manufactured moves. I'm still not clear who is being harmed by spoofing. I understand and accept @GRULSTMRNN point about fair markets, but who is being harmed? Someone mentioned instability. Ok, why large orders cause instability? Oh wait, because people who are supposed to make the markets stable (and enjoy privileges for doing so) withdraw liquidity at the first sign of danger! Happy to be corrected.


we need to know how to trade
markets with manipulators and
markets without manipulators.
 
Speculators serve an important purpose, but HFTs are not speculating. They're bouncing trades back in forth between each other, front running, and manipulating markets.
Ah, I haven't been in the pits but HFTs just automated everything that they did in the pits. Most of the strategies came directly from them. Did I forget to mention that pit traders were co-located and had access to info before anyone else?
This is my opinion, but these indexes and a lot of equities do not trade like markets anymore.
Exactly, they have been made more efficient by algos. We don't want efficient markets, we want deviations not based on fundamentals. At least for short term trading. For longer term, HFTs simply add liquidity and tighten spreads. Just opinion.
 
Right, my point is that traders usually benefit from artificially manufactured moves. I'm still not clear who is being harmed by spoofing. I understand and accept @GRULSTMRNN point about fair markets, but who is being harmed? Someone mentioned instability. Ok, why large orders cause instability? Oh wait, because people who are supposed to make the markets stable (and enjoy privileges for doing so) withdraw liquidity at the first sign of danger! Happy to be corrected.

Ah I think this makes a lot of sense. Someone important has been hurt, it's not simply an application of the law.
 
Right, my point is that traders usually benefit from artificially manufactured moves. I'm still not clear who is being harmed by spoofing. I understand and accept @GRULSTMRNN point about fair markets, but who is being harmed? Someone mentioned instability. Ok, why large orders cause instability? Oh wait, because people who are supposed to make the markets stable (and enjoy privileges for doing so) withdraw liquidity at the first sign of danger! Happy to be corrected.


who are affected?
those who do very heavy scalping,
those who use DOM and focus on bids and offers,
those who do HFT (because they are competitors !),
and perhaps market makers.
 
As an aside, that Groot bit I saw in the thread earlier, where I saw his nick but no text, was a true glitch. It is not there anymore. So he still has me on total block.

Worst feature ever, mostly.
 
Exactly, they have been made more efficient by algos. We don't want efficient markets, we want deviations not based on fundamentals. At least for short term trading. For longer term, HFTs simply add liquidity and tighten spreads. Just opinion.

My point was mainly that if it's trading fundamentally different than what it represents either the price gives, the market gives, or it ceases to be anything more than a gambling instrument. I don't really care much about scalpers.

Deviations not based on fundamentals are inefficient. HFTs are not creating inefficiency. They are creating chaos. Are you suggesting here that, because there's a possibility to MAYBE be on the right side of a flash crash, we should allow these cowboys to fake liquidity in order to coerce the market into a making a mistake? That's not inefficiency my friend, that's criminal. A farmers market with two competing farmers will find efficiency eventually through discovery. If I ran in there telling people I'm selling oranges 4000 times cheaper with 10000 times the inventory, and then after everyone starts selling to compete I say "whoops sorry!" the only orange I'll be eating will be in a sock.
 
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