Happy Columbus Day !

[UsualName]

Columbus shows up to a place where millions of people have lived for thousands of years and is credited for “discovering” America.

Obviously that is wrong. Columbus did not discover anything. He was the first European to document passage to America, and return.

So why is it that history has wrongly used “discovered?” Because when you actually discover something you have rights to it.

However, Columbus is not the only person to travel to other lands and brutalize the people who live there. The Polynesians were probably the greatest seafarers in the history of the world. They however were brutal to each other as well.

 

[El OchoCinco]

Better said to document passage to the Carribean and he touched South America using what we call them now. If we take the common usage of America he is given a federal holiday and hero status in a country where he has zero connection with... yet no one questions it and why it became a holiday...

Catholics feeling left out in a Protestant country no doubt...


Also for those who talk about the local tribes being brutal to each other as though that supports your position that Columbus was fine..... tribes were fighting and raping and pillaging in Europe since the Greek and Roman empires. we don't ignore that history. Just because the local tribes in Hispaniola were brutal to their enemies does not mean we can forget selling children as sex slaves or brutal dismemberment.

 

[UsualName]

Better said to document passage to the Carribean and he touched South America using what we call them now. If we take the common usage of America he is given a federal holiday and hero status in a country where he has zero connection with... yet no one questions it and why it became a holiday...

Catholics feeling left out in a Protestant country no doubt...


Also for those who talk about the local tribes being brutal to each other as though that supports your position that Columbus was fine..... tribes were fighting and raping and pillaging in Europe since the Greek and Roman empires. we don't ignore that history. Just because the local tribes in Hispaniola were brutal to their enemies does not mean we can forget selling children as sex slaves or brutal dismemberment.

Good point about America. The guy never even came here and that’s just a continuation of the “discovered” narrative, that somehow there was a “right” to the land and resources.

My point about Polynesians was not a point of local infighting. As Polynesians spread throughout the pacific they encountered other islands already inhabited by other Polynesians they had no idea of or lost touch with and proceeded to claim the lands.

 

[gwb-trading]

This is actually a good read, his reputation was revived in a surprising way due to the 1889 world fair.

Inventing Columbus
https://news.ufl.edu/articles/2016/10/how-an-architect-of-destruction-became-a-national-symbol.html#:~:text=Columbus was a narcissist.,enough wealth to recapture Jerusalem.&text=Columbus' personal qualities led to his downfall.

This article provides some good context about Columbus at the beginning. He was a narcissistic ego-maniac who was a totally incompetent administrator. -- while continually making outrageous claims on wealth and awarding himself "titles". He generally was a poor leader (while being an administrator for instance) while at moments showing leadership flairs during his voyages. As an Italian, he was continually undermined by Spanish nobles who considered him unworthy. And as noted in the article Francisco de Bobadilla actually arrested him for his brutal treatment of Spanish sailors and had him sent back to Spain. From the written record Francisco de Bobadilla could care less about brutal treatment of the natives -- while still documenting some instances if they helped support his case about Columbus not accepting insults about his lowly birth, etc. The report by Francisco de Bobadilla filed to the Spanish crown is the best record of Columbus' behavior in the new world - yet it is biased because the intent of Francisco de Bobadilla was to prosecute & remove Columbus (from even before departing Spain) rather than providing an accurate record. Yet his report is the best record of this time establishing the facts. Sadly Francisco de Bobadilla died in 1502 before he could defend his report in court related to Columbus' behavior.

 

[Bugenhagen]

He never went to Colombia either, not a toe.

Through history narcissists, the first cousins of psychopaths, have mixed things up. I have often noted that psych sciences are clear that narcissists get so caught up in their fantasy of unique destiny, they are remarkably oblivious to personal danger. It may be more than this, it seems this could be hard wiring in the brain.

Most just die but the very odd one beats the odds in a self-fulfilling prophecy kind of way, until they don't.

Its worth remembering that Colombus' aim was, because God created him to do this he told everyone, to liberate Jerusalem. Reality finally got an elbow in and he died with that goal never completed. Changing his name to "The Christ bringer" in 1493 was the tip of the narcissberg.

Yep, narcissists in their cruel delusional incompetence/under-competence, do kick the football of history a number of times. But they are total dickheads, very very prone to pedophilia and basically, don't let your daughter marry one / near one unattended.

 

[brass_trader]

Columbus did a tremendous amount of good and changed history. He did MUCH MORE GOOD than bad and lets not forget, this was the 1400’s.
He even adopted a young native indian who’s father died. He did plenty of good.

 

[El OchoCinco]

Good point about America. The guy never even came here and that’s just a continuation of the “discovered” narrative, that somehow there was a “right” to the land and resources.

My point about Polynesians was not a point of local infighting. As Polynesians spread throughout the pacific they encountered other islands already inhabited by other Polynesians they had no idea of or lost touch with and proceeded to claim the lands.

I was just saying all people since the beginning of time conquered neighborhing lands and committed shitty acts. it was basically survival and was brutal.

But when white Europeans do it, we build them statues and tend to forget about how they come in and kill everyone and make them slaves or dig for gold.

 

[El OchoCinco]

Ahhh the old..... George Washington treated his slaves well argument...

 

[TreeFrogTrader]

But when white Europeans do it, we build them statues and tend to forget about how they come in and kill everyone and make them slaves or dig for gold.

People's memories and knowledge tend to be what is convenient for them.

The hispanics for example- are quick to know and point out - that white colonialism descendants are shiite.

However, is it not true that Spain also was major, and vicious and exploitive power AND most people who are hispanic are descended in part either from conquistadors or the culture that they installed. I get that the degree varies from region to region, but if one is hispanic there is some spanish blood there, eh? And the spanish were plundering, genocidal mothers in the New World. AOC should apologize for being alive and leave Congress.

I think your point about the glorification of certain persons and practices is still valid and my point does not speak against that. But this bullshiite of going after whitey because he has colonial blood or had a some slaveholder ancestor is racist. There is a lot of picking and choosing amonst blacks and hispanics as to who they are descended from while overlooking the parts that are not convenient. And of course many people- whites included- cannot trace their ancestry back beyond their grandparents- or increasingly- do not even know who their father is so that makes it easy to not have any skeletons in your ancestry.

Not to mention that most slaves in the U.S./The Colonies were purchased from black tribes in Africa who were trafficking in their own slave trade along with Arabs. Especially the Arabs, I should say.

 

[El OchoCinco]

People's memories and knowledge tend to be what is convenient for them.

The hispanics for example- are quick to know and point out - that white colonialism descendants are shiite.

However, is it not true that Spain also was major, and vicious and exploitive power AND most people who are hispanic are descended in part either from conquistadors or the culture that they installed. I get that the degree varies from region to region, but if one is hispanic there is some spanish blood there, eh? And the spanish were plundering, genocidal mothers in the New World. AOC should apologize for being alive and leave Congress.

I think your point about the glorification of certain persons and practices is still valid and my point does not speak against that. But this bullshiite of going after whitey because he has colonial blood or had a some slaveholder ancestor is racist. There is a lot of picking and choosing amonst blacks and hispanics as to who they are descended from while overlooking the parts that are not convenient. And of course many people- whites included- cannot trace their ancestry back beyond their grandparents- or increasingly- do not even know who their father is so that makes it easy to not have any skeletons in your ancestry.

Not to mention that most slaves in the U.S./The Colonies were purchased from black tribes in Africa who were trafficking in their own slave trade along with Arabs. Especially the Arabs, I should say.

I was not in tending a go after whitey post, my point was pointing out that natives were brutal to their neighborhing tribes does not magically excuse what colonial powers did. All empires raped pillaged and destroyed. But we tend to glorify one....european settlers.

Hispanics can show pride in Spanish descent, it has a log history and culture. I dont take anything form that rich culture just the tiny period where they conquered the new world. I am just focusing on labelling this explorers as some amazing people for the risks they took without understanding why they took them. or why they maintained them.. gold, slaves, power.. the usual.

And it is not about glorification or condemnation even. Just the history having all the facts. Columbus sailed across the Atlantic 4 times and opened the door for Europe into the new world, but he also enabled a alrge amount of atrocities. Just basic facts.

But you have to admit.. a federal holiday in the U.S. is quite absurd.