GOP supports full Amensty for illegals.

[jem]

The people in the R party are healthy... the split in the party is mostly due to the establishment sellout politicans. the McCains, the boehners, McConnell and the like.

The sellout establishment politicans tell us they are for fiscal responsibility and anti obamacare and then they screw us.

amnesty is a perfect example of this. the party is virtually unified against bring it up now... the split is with the traitors like boehner, ryan and the leadership in the house.

on obamacare... the party is solidly anti obama.. the traitors were in the house and senate.

issue after issue.. the establishment and the press pretend there is a split in the party... the reality is that the polticians are traitors to the people and that causes the appearance of a split.
No one is for an amnesty bill right now... where is the split?
no republican is for obamacare... how come they are not voting it down.
almost no one is for deficit spending... why isn't the budget capped.

Why wasn't boehner out there saying Reid and Obama were in control of whether the govt shut down.. Why didn't boehner hold up the individual appropriation bills and say all then need is a signature and a vote from democrats?

 

[AAAintheBeltway]

It's nonsense when you quote one part of what Libertarians believe in, but conveniently leave out the other parts in order to make your argument seem sound.

From the link above I quoted:



Additionally, when you include other aspects of the Libertarian platform (like the removal of the welfare state) then the platform as a whole makes sense. When you just analyze a piece of someone's argument, it frequently does not pass the smell test. That's why people who want to discredit an idea do it that way.

You favor amnesty, just like the politicians of both parties. At least they are getting paid off for destroying our country. Why a reasonable person would favor it though escapes me. How do you limit it? Or do you think it is acceptable for anyone who wants to move here to do so? Are you ok with another 30 million mexicans? How about 50 million africans? After all, it is immoral to restrict their ability to cross political boundaries.

The Libertarian free trade plank, while not as obviously disastrous as the immigration plan, is also a recipe for slow motion disaster. Free trade has made us the dumping ground for the worlds' exporters. Our ability to make just about anything has been lost. You see other industrial countries like Germany and Japan paying lip service to free trade, but they take advantage of our market and shut us out of theirs. We are gradually becoming a third world economy, able to sell only agricultural and natural resources abroad. Areas that we are competitive in, like intellectual property,eg movies, music, software, pharma, are relentlessly stolen by foreign companies with the implicit support of their governments, and often explicit support.

 

[achilles28]

The Libertarian free trade plank, while not as obviously disastrous as the immigration plan, is also a recipe for slow motion disaster. Free trade has made us the dumping ground for the worlds' exporters. Our ability to make just about anything has been lost. You see other industrial countries like Germany and Japan paying lip service to free trade, but they take advantage of our market and shut us out of theirs. We are gradually becoming a third world economy, able to sell only agricultural and natural resources abroad. Areas that we are competitive in, like intellectual property,eg movies, music, software, pharma, are relentlessly stolen by foreign companies with the implicit support of their governments, and often explicit support.

Agreed. But it was establishment Rhinos and Liberals who passed free trade, at the behest of their Fortune 500 masters. Not Libertarians. Free trade is part of the agenda to deindustralize the West and foster dependency on the State. Libertarians promote free trade with conditions - extremely low taxes, and low regulation at home. Otherwise, free trade doesn't work - it becomes a zero-sum relationship that favors one nation at the expense of another. I think most Americans support fair-trade - high tariffs against low-cost third world producers, and low-tax/regulatory environment at home.

 

[Tsing Tao]

You favor amnesty, just like the politicians of both parties. At least they are getting paid off for destroying our country. Why a reasonable person would favor it though escapes me. How do you limit it? Or do you think it is acceptable for anyone who wants to move here to do so? Are you ok with another 30 million mexicans? How about 50 million africans? After all, it is immoral to restrict their ability to cross political boundaries.

.

I think you're being somewhat alarmist on the 30 million Mexicans or 50 million Africans. The laws aren't enforced now, and we don't have that.

Put in a process for those here illegally to become legal - tax them. Charge them back taxes/fees and make them get to the back of the line in the application for permanent resident status. Then, set up a pathway for everyone else that wants to come to the country to work in a legal manner. Did you forget that we were the country that used to read "Give me your tired, your poor, Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free;"

Set up the system to favor the workers, not the moochers. Then, you get less moochers and more workers. If the current moochers (which is a huge part of our citizenship ex-illegals) decide to work because they can't make money from a government check, the jobs begin to dry up for the illegals. Then, perhaps they stop coming.

On the second part of your comment, achillies answered very astutely.

 

[jem]

yes but back when we had unfettered immigration we did not have a govt safety net... you got here and you went to war or work. Charity groups like the knights of columbus formed to help group take care of the recent immigrant brothers.

I do not see have you can have unfettered immigration and a social safety net... it will bust up the tax payers. I do not see how you could have massive unemployment and much immigration at all.
First we need to get our economy booming and your citizens working... then consider immigration.

Finally,

1. outsourcing jobs and businesses overseas,
2. "free" (meaning stupid) trade,
3. big immigration,
4. large govt safety net for new arrivals,
5. trillions spent on being worlds policeman,
6. massive devaluation of the dollar, and
7. other similar policies
8. obamacare,
9. campaigns finance which allows our polticians to dole out their money to staff and friends... and award millions and billions to family and friends and then allows our polticians and generals and every one else in govt to go work for the people they were monitoring?

could we have a dumber mix of policies. is there any question, this mix of policies is designed to extract wealth from working tax payers?
we can not support any more of this crap... we need to get an integrated approach to running a country properly.

I think you're being somewhat alarmist on the 30 million Mexicans or 50 million Africans. The laws aren't enforced now, and we don't have that.

Put in a process for those here illegally to become legal - tax them. Charge them back taxes/fees and make them get to the back of the line in the application for permanent resident status. Then, set up a pathway for everyone else that wants to come to the country to work in a legal manner. Did you forget that we were the country that used to read "Give me your tired, your poor, Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free;"

Set up the system to favor the workers, not the moochers. Then, you get less moochers and more workers. If the current moochers (which is a huge part of our citizenship ex-illegals) decide to work because they can't make money from a government check, the jobs begin to dry up for the illegals. Then, perhaps they stop coming.

On the second part of your comment, achillies answered very astutely.

 

[fhl]

Agreed. But it was establishment Rhinos and Liberals who passed free trade, at the behest of their Fortune 500 masters. Not Libertarians. Free trade is part of the agenda to deindustralize the West and foster dependency on the State. Libertarians promote free trade with conditions - extremely low taxes, and low regulation at home. Otherwise, free trade doesn't work - it becomes a zero-sum relationship that favors one nation at the expense of another. I think most Americans support fair-trade - high tariffs against low-cost third world producers, and low-tax/regulatory environment at home.

So the entire economics profession is not smart enough to figure out that free trade is detrimental to a nation's economy?

It actually stuns me that we have conservatives on here that want to protect union jobs and get into the centralized state planning business.

If there is one single solitary thing that boner and co do right in gov't, and it probably is the only thing they do right, it's keeping us out of the protectionist game.

There is no way that ordinary working Americans should get fleeced on the stuff they buy in order to protect union jobs.

NO WAY!

 

[PiggyBank]

If we put up tariffs on china, india etc, our economy would begin to boom as manufacturing made its way back here, they would be fucked but who cares, not me. Then we could loosen up immigration as job demand grows, but what's the benefit of doing it now? If the millions of illegals already here get amnesty, then they are subject to min wage laws, gov bennies and so on, while they're economic benefit (slave labor) evaporates.

I still wouldn't support open borders though. in fact, i will never support open borders. there has to be a system for immigration.

edit: this is not about unions fhl, it's about getting our companies to bring their manufacturing back here. If we lowered corporate tax rates along with establishing tariffs on imports, there may not be an impact on prices at all. Also, I don't support unions, but i think the employees of a private sector company can and should have the ability to collectively bargain.

 

[achilles28]

So the entire economics profession is not smart enough to figure out that free trade is detrimental to a nation's economy?

It actually stuns me that we have conservatives on here that want to protect union jobs and get into the centralized state planning business.

If there is one single solitary thing that boner and co do right in gov't, and it probably is the only thing they do right, it's keeping us out of the protectionist game.

There is no way that ordinary working Americans should get fleeced on the stuff they buy in order to protect union jobs.

NO WAY!

Nobody mentioned unions, except you. I support right-to-work and no Federal or State law should exist that protects striking unions from the termination of their employment. While you support the offshoring of American industry, this deprives income from American workers and creates the downward pressure on American employment, living standards, and GDP, we see today.

The "entire economics profession" has no predictive power because it passes off ideological dogma as scientific fact to support an existing political system. It's really a corrupt science, like white-washed history etc.

 

[achilles28]

If we put up tariffs on china, india etc, our economy would begin to boom as manufacturing made its way back here, they would be fucked but who cares, not me. Then we could loosen up immigration as job demand grows, but what's the benefit of doing it now? If the millions of illegals already here get amnesty, then they are subject to min wage laws, gov bennies and so on, while they're economic benefit (slave labor) evaporates.

I still wouldn't support open borders though. in fact, i will never support open borders. there has to be a system for immigration.

edit: this is not about unions fhl, it's about getting our companies to bring their manufacturing back here. If we lowered corporate tax rates along with establishing tariffs on imports, there may not be an impact on prices at all. Also, I don't support unions, but i think the employees of a private sector company can and should have the ability to collectively bargain.

I think the move to Asia by Fortune 500 was, in part, an attempt to side-step heavy investment in automation and robotics necessary to keep domestic industry competitive, had manufacturing remained in America. The huge benefit to all that is we could have remained the worlds number#1 exporter.

 

[Ricter]

I'm loving the criticism of the natural operations of capital coming from the right in this thread!