i figured you would chime in. check this out, you don't support free markets here in the US but you want free trade between nations, even those like china that cheat us, right? you're ass backwards.
You are using an out of date browser. It may not display this or other websites correctly.
You should upgrade or use an alternative browser.
You should upgrade or use an alternative browser.
GOP supports full Amensty for illegals.
- Thread starter achilles28
- Start date
So the entire economics profession is not smart enough to figure out that free trade is detrimental to a nation's economy?
It actually stuns me that we have conservatives on here that want to protect union jobs and get into the centralized state planning business.
If there is one single solitary thing that boner and co do right in gov't, and it probably is the only thing they do right, it's keeping us out of the protectionist game.
There is no way that ordinary working Americans should get fleeced on the stuff they buy in order to protect union jobs.
NO WAY!
Economists generally would agree that free trade promotes economic efficiency. There is no agreement I am aware of regarding its effects on an individual country.
The problem is there is no free trade as economic models assume. It is rigged and anyone in business knows it. The Japanese and to an extent the europeans hinder American exports. They don't pay their fair share of the west's defense costs either.
Some in the US clearly benefit, eg Walmart shoppers. The problem is we are evolving inot a country of people who work in retail, fast food or government jobs. I don't see how that creates wealth. Those at the very top working in fields like finance, law, entertainment, etc do very well. Everyone else gets the short straw. The good factory and construction jbs that provided middle class lifestyles to high shcool grads are either gone to Asia or filled by immigrants, mostly illegal. Go by any big construction site and tell me I'm wrong.
The US, as the world's biggest market and the most self-sufficient economy, had the most to lose from free trade, and we are in the process of losing it.
Many have observed that you can't have open borders and a welfare state. Similarly, you can't have free trade and an expensive set of rules promoting unionism, environmentalism, safety, all forms of anti-discrimination, mandatory health care etc. You can pretend otherwise, but the gradual economic decline of the US proves otherwise. Our dcline is masked by the world's appetite for the dollar and government paper. At some point that will inevitably change and we will be forced to face the music.
I'm loving the criticism of the natural operations of capital coming from the right in this thread!
The natural operations of capital doesn't include massive wealth redistribution systems, or heavy-handed regulation. You support one (free trade), but not the other (massive taxation and regulation).
Nobody mentioned unions, except you. I support right-to-work and no Federal or State law should exist that protects striking unions from the termination of their employment. While you support the offshoring of American industry, this deprives income from American workers and creates the downward pressure on American employment, living standards, and GDP, we see today.
The "entire economics profession" has no predictive power because it passes off ideological dogma as scientific fact to support an existing political system.
Don't agree.
Germany makes quality stuff and China makes cheap stuff. That is why they are successful and not because they have state planned economies.
We tried to protect the auto companies for decades from foreign competition. How'd that work out for us?
Ignoring the fact that everyone pays more for inferior products does not make that gargantuan drag on the economy go away. It's still there. It's just harder to see, like every program that takes a little from everyone to protect the few.
Many have observed that you can't have open borders and a welfare state. Similarly, you can't have free trade and an expensive set of rules promoting unionism, environmentalism, safety, all forms of anti-discrimination, mandatory health care etc. You can pretend otherwise, but the gradual economic decline of the US proves otherwise. Our dcline is masked by the world's appetite for the dollar and government paper. At some point that will inevitably change and we will be forced to face the music.
Exactly it. Well said.
China was supposed to make our shoes, and in return, we would ship them computers and cars. Problem is, China makes everything for their domestic market, and now exports computers (and soon, cars), to us. The big, fancy, high tech stuff we were supposed to make in America and send to China? The automakers set up plants in China instead of making the vehicles here. And the tech companies transferred technology to contract manufacturers (FOXCON etc), so China makes it all (and sends it to us). On top of that, like triple A said, trade partners cheat and run mercantile trade policies to stimulate continual exports. Iow, they cheat.
This is why economic theory and economic professors, are bullshit. Politicians knew all this beforehand.
The natural operations of capital doesn't include massive wealth redistribution systems, or heavy-handed regulation. You support one (free trade), but not the other (massive taxation and regulation).
Economic efficiency is a desirable goal but it is not a religion. Sometimes a society has to take a broader view. There are other values to consider.
i figured you would chime in. check this out, you don't support free markets here in the US but you want free trade between nations, even those like china that cheat us, right? you're ass backwards.
I don't want (totally) free trade between nations, just pointing out the irony of the ostensibly capitalist party criticizing a normal operation of capitalism.
Economic efficiency is a desirable goal but it is not a religion. Sometimes a society has to take a broader view. There are other values to consider.
We'll be better off if our economy isn't efficient?
Whoa
Don't agree.
Germany makes quality stuff and China makes cheap stuff. That is why they are successful and not because they have state planned economies.
We tried to protect the auto companies for decades from foreign competition. How'd that work out for us?
Ignoring the fact that everyone pays more for inferior products does not make that gargantuan drag on the economy go away. It's still there. It's just harder to see, like every program that takes a little from everyone to protect the few.
This is the other side of the argument, and the points you make are very valid.
One way I would try to balance it is to withdraw from the WTO and all multinational treaties. We still have the ability to dictate trade terms. If you don't like it, sell your shit elsewhere. Look at how successful Chin ahas been in forcing companies to give up IP, form partnerships etc to get into their market. Shouldn't we be fighting fire with fire?
Ideally, we would apply a policy of strict reciprocity, ie we treat you like you treat us. With some countries like China, we would have to impose additional restraints because of their propensity to steal IP, low wages, lack of enivronmental controls etc.