For my Christians Friends

[Thunderdog]

Quote from Joab:

Niether vhen nor I personally knew Albert Einstein and his interpretations of his words are no more valid then mine...

Not quite. Sorry, Joab, but you don't know your history. Religious apologists have tried to claim Einstein as one of their own by quoting his musings entirely out of context. However, Einstein has repeatedly dismissed the idea that he was either a theist or a deist. In fact, so much so, that an American Roman Catholic lawyer, working on behalf of an ecumenical coalition, wrote to Einsten concluding that Einstein's "ridicule" of the idea of a personal God constituted him as one of the greatest sources of discord in America. Further, a New York rabbi said that "Einstein is unquestionably a great scientist, but his religious views are diametrically opposed to Judaism." And finally, the Founder of the Calvary Tabernacle Association of Oklahoma wrote this to him: "...we invite you, if you do not believe in the God of the people of this nation, to go back where you came from...take your crazy, fallacious theory of evolution and go back to Germany where you came from, or stop trying to break down the faith of people who gave you a welcome when you were forced to flee your native land."

Two observations. First, documentary evidence does not at all support the notion that Einsten believed in a supernatural God as do theists and deists. Second, nothing quite like christian charity, eh?

 

[Thunderdog]

Quote from Thunderdog:

Not quite. Sorry, Joab, but you don't know your history. Religious apologists have tried to claim Einstein as one of their own by quoting his musings entirely out of context. However, Einstein has repeatedly dismissed the idea that he was either a theist or a deist. In fact, so much so, that an American Roman Catholic lawyer, working on behalf of an ecumenical coalition, wrote to Einsten concluding that Einstein's "ridicule" of the idea of a personal God constituted him as one of the greatest sources of discord in America. Further, a New York rabbi said that "Einstein is unquestionably a great scientist, but his religious views are diametrically opposed to Judaism." And finally, the Founder of the Calvary Tabernacle Association of Oklahoma wrote this to him: "...we invite you, if you do not believe in the God of the people of this nation, to go back where you came from...take your crazy, fallacious theory of evolution and go back to Germany where you came from, or stop trying to break down the faith of people who gave you a welcome when you were forced to flee your native land."

Two observations. First, documentary evidence does not at all support the notion that Einsten believed in a supernatural God as do theists and deists. Second, nothing quite like christian charity, eh?

P.S. If anything, Einstein was a pantheist. A pantheist does not believe in a supernatural God, as do theists and deists. Rather, a pantheist uses the word God as a non-supernatural synonym for Nature, or for the Universe, or for the lawfulness that governs its workings. Deists differ from theists in that their God does not answer prayers, is not interested in sins or confessions, does not read our thoughts and does not intervene with capricous miracles. Deists differ from pantheists in that the deist God is some kind of cosmic intelligence, rather that the pantheist's metaphoric or poetic synonym for the laws of the universe. Pantheism is sexed-up atheism. Deism is watered-down theism.

The internationally prominent astrophysicist and astronomer Carl Sagan put it well: "...if by 'God' one means the set of physical laws that govern the universe, then clearly there is such a God. This God is emotionally unsatisfying...it does not make much sense to pray to the law of gravity."

-- Excerpted from Richard Dawkins' The God Delusion.

 

[Mvic]

Quote from Thunderdog:

P.S. If anything, Einstein was a pantheist. A pantheist does not believe in a supernatural God, as do theists and deists. Rather, a pantheist uses the word God as a non-supernatural synonym for Nature, or for the Universe, or for the lawfulness that governs its workings. Deists differ from theists in that their God does not answer prayers, is not interested in sins or confessions, does not read our thoughts and does not intervene with capricous miracles. Deists differ from pantheists in that the deist God is some kind of cosmic intelligence, rather that the pantheist's metaphoric or poetic synonym for the laws of the universe. Pantheism is sexed-up atheism. Deism is watered-down theism.

The internationally prominent astrophysicist and astronomer Carl Sagan put it well: "...if by 'God' one means the set of physical laws that govern the universe, then clearly there is such a God. This God is emotionally unsatisfying...it does not make much sense to pray to the law of gravity."

-- Excerpted from Richard Dawkins' The God Delusion.

Enlightening post, thanks.

 

[Mvic]

Quote from volente_00:

I love all of you guys. A strong atheist is no different than a deranged theist. Even if God's existence was proven one day by scientific evidence, the atheist would still rebute it and then argue for days on it what the definition of God really is. Why does it bother an atheist so much if someone believes ? Why do they get so bitter and attack the theist ? In every one of these threads the common theme is the atheist always attacks the theist first, Why is that ? What are they so bitter about ? What does one have to lose by living a life following the 10 commandments ? What are they giving up by believing ?

Quite possibly one of the most naive posts I have ever encountered on ET, and that must be some kind of record

 

[Thunderdog]

Quote from volente_00:

I love all of you guys. A strong atheist is no different than a deranged theist. Even if God's existence was proven one day by scientific evidence, the atheist would still rebute it...

Not exactly. Atheists are atheists precisely because there is no proof. If proof were in evidence, then the term atheist would be moot.

Quote from volente_00:

...Why do they get so bitter and attack the theist ?

Thomas Jefferson: "Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. Ideas must be distinct before reason can act upon them; and no man ever had a distinct idea of the trinity. It is the mere Abracadabra of the mountebanks calling themselves the priests of Jesus."
- Letter to Francis Adrian Van der Kemp, 30 July, 1816

Thomas Jefferson: "The Christian god can easily be pictured as virtually the same god as the many ancient gods of past civilizations. The Christian god is a three headed monster; cruel, vengeful and capricious. If one wishes to know more of this raging, three headed beast-like god, one only needs to look at the caliber of people who say they serve him. They are always of two classes: fools and hypocrites."
- Letter to his nephew, Peter Carr

http://www.humanitiesweb.org/human.php?s=h&p=c&a=q&ID=122


During almost fifteen centuries has the legal establishment of Christianity been on trial. What has been its fruits? More or less, in all places, pride and indolence in the clergy; ignorance and servility in the laity; in both, superstition, bigotry and persecution.” — James Madison

“As I understand the Christian religion, it was, and is, a revelation. But how has it happened that millions of fables, tales, legends, have been blended with both Jewish and Christian revelation that have made them the most bloody religion that ever existed?” –John Adams

“The divinity of Jesus is made a convenient cover for absurdity. Nowhere in the Gospels do we find a precept for Creeds, Confessions, Oaths, Doctrines, and whole cartloads of other foolish trumpery that we find in Christianity.” --John Adams

“This would be the best of all possible worlds, if there were no religion in it.” –John Adams

“Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined, imprisoned; yet we have not advanced an inch towards uniformity. What has been the effect of coercion? To make one half the world fools, and the other half hypocrites. To support roguery and error all over the earth.” –Thomas Jefferson

“On the dogmas of religion, as distinguished from moral principles, all mankind, from the beginning of the world to this day, have been quarreling, fighting, burning and torturing one another, for abstractions unintelligible to themselves and to all others, and absolutely beyond the comprehension of the human mind.” –Thomas Jefferson

http://whitehouser.com/politics/religion/godless-constitution-founding-fathers-christianity/

I can go on and on. But, really, what would be the point? As an aside, your comment is ironically amusing since it is religion that is filled with all manner of intolerance and the rest of the world must accept such intolerance as a measure of "religious freedom."

 

[I am...]

Quote from DerekD:

But you still not have addressed the question as to why one would be afraid of salvation.

It's an irrational fear of love. The Self is love. Man is a phenomenon of dissociation from Self, and therefore a dissociation from love. A return to love would spell the end of man. The fear is pretty intense. "No man has seen the face of God and lived", means that as man comes to understand Self, his self-concept must be abandoned. The Self and self-concepts cannot coexist. As the self-concept is abandoned, the face of Christ is seen everywhere, and the seer understands that Christ is who he is. The self-concept that temporarily substituted for Self fades and disappears forever.

Jesus

 

[I am...]

Quote from misterman:

It's the occultists view based on thousands of years of testing. While subjective in nature as anything to do with the mind is (and science for that matter) it is fully testable in that anyone can hone their mind through decades of meditation and study and independantly come to the same conclusions.

Yes, as the mind is trained, the faithful one may see evidence of the mind's power. This might encourage him to renew his efforts. Any area of study that demonstrates the power of the mind would be of interest to one who would know himself as Christ. The mind is one, so those who study it will eventually come to the same conclusions. Miracles demonstrate that the student has had the right Teacher and practiced himself with right teachings. Miracles are for the students education as he learns that giving is the same as recieving. Miracles are like lamps that light the students path to full understanding and full awareness of himself as Christ. Miracles teach the student that as Christ, he is not subject to any law of this universe. Importantly, the student learns that in the Kingdom, not one thing is any more difficult than another. As he applies the laws of the Kingdom to this world, the student prepares himself to return to Self as his reality. Therefore, miracles are expected of a keen student. They straighten out his false perceptions about reality. So they heal his mind. Salvation is for the mind that has warped its perspectives by an abuse of his Christ-power. Miracles are shared and sharable in nature, thereby teaching the student the nature of reality which was denied in order to make an unshared and unsharable world. As the miracle-worker gives miracles, he experiences miracles, thereby learning that giving is recieving. This is an important lesson in preparation for a return to the Kingdom.

Jesus

 

[I am...]

Quote from Thunderdog:

Two observations. First, documentary evidence does not at all support the notion that Einsten believed in a supernatural God as do theists and deists. Second, nothing quite like christian charity, eh?

Einstein figured that man's experience was an optical delusion of his consciousness. In that, he was not too far off the mark. As man un-deludes himself, his blind eyes will open to a new world...one that reflects heaven, but still exists within the symbology of perception.

Jesus

 

[Thunderdog]

Quote from I am...:

Einstein figured that man's experience was an optical delusion of his consciousness. In that, he was not too far off the mark. As man un-deludes himself, his blind eyes will open to a new world...one that reflects heaven, but still exists within the symbology of perception.

Jesus

As with many religious apologists before you, you are putting words into Einstein's mouth. At least pay him the simple courtesy of not misquoting or misrepresenting him if you do not agree with his pantheism/atheism. Surely you can muster up at least that much respect for the man.

 

[smilingsynic]

Quote from Thunderdog:

Not exactly. Atheists are atheists precisely because there is no proof. If proof were in evidence, then the term atheist would be moot.

Thomas Jefferson: "Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. Ideas must be distinct before reason can act upon them; and no man ever had a distinct idea of the trinity. It is the mere Abracadabra of the mountebanks calling themselves the priests of Jesus."
- Letter to Francis Adrian Van der Kemp, 30 July, 1816

Thomas Jefferson: "The Christian god can easily be pictured as virtually the same god as the many ancient gods of past civilizations. The Christian god is a three headed monster; cruel, vengeful and capricious. If one wishes to know more of this raging, three headed beast-like god, one only needs to look at the caliber of people who say they serve him. They are always of two classes: fools and hypocrites."
- Letter to his nephew, Peter Carr

http://www.humanitiesweb.org/human.php?s=h&p=c&a=q&ID=122


During almost fifteen centuries has the legal establishment of Christianity been on trial. What has been its fruits? More or less, in all places, pride and indolence in the clergy; ignorance and servility in the laity; in both, superstition, bigotry and persecution.” — James Madison

“As I understand the Christian religion, it was, and is, a revelation. But how has it happened that millions of fables, tales, legends, have been blended with both Jewish and Christian revelation that have made them the most bloody religion that ever existed?” –John Adams

“The divinity of Jesus is made a convenient cover for absurdity. Nowhere in the Gospels do we find a precept for Creeds, Confessions, Oaths, Doctrines, and whole cartloads of other foolish trumpery that we find in Christianity.” --John Adams

“This would be the best of all possible worlds, if there were no religion in it.” –John Adams

“Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined, imprisoned; yet we have not advanced an inch towards uniformity. What has been the effect of coercion? To make one half the world fools, and the other half hypocrites. To support roguery and error all over the earth.” –Thomas Jefferson

“On the dogmas of religion, as distinguished from moral principles, all mankind, from the beginning of the world to this day, have been quarreling, fighting, burning and torturing one another, for abstractions unintelligible to themselves and to all others, and absolutely beyond the comprehension of the human mind.” –Thomas Jefferson

http://whitehouser.com/politics/religion/godless-constitution-founding-fathers-christianity/

I can go on and on. But, really, what would be the point? As an aside, your comment is ironically amusing since it is religion that is filled with all manner of intolerance and the rest of the world must accept such intolerance as a measure of "religious freedom."

But, but, but, but, I thought the Founding Fathers were all god-fearing, Bible-believing men of God.