For my Christians Friends

Quote from Thunderdog:

As with many religious apologists before you, you are putting words into Einstein's mouth. At least pay him the simple courtesy of not misquoting or misrepresenting him if you do not agree with his pantheism/atheism. Surely you can muster up at least that much respect for the man.
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Here is what he said in context.

"A human being is a part of a whole, called by us _universe_, a part limited in time and space. He experiences himself, his thoughts and feelings as something separated from the rest... a kind of optical delusion of his consciousness. This delusion is a kind of prison for us, restricting us to our personal desires and to affection for a few persons nearest to us. Our task must be to free ourselves from this prison by widening our circle of compassion to embrace all living creatures and the whole of nature in its beauty." ~ Albert Einstein

I did not quote him because it is not verbatim. But you can see what he "figured" out from this quote, so the meaning is intact.
 
Quote from Thunderdog:

P.S. If anything, Einstein was a pantheist. A pantheist does not believe in a supernatural God, as do theists and deists. Rather, a pantheist uses the word God as a non-supernatural synonym for Nature, or for the Universe, or for the lawfulness that governs its workings. Deists differ from theists in that their God does not answer prayers, is not interested in sins or confessions, does not read our thoughts and does not intervene with capricous miracles. Deists differ from pantheists in that the deist God is some kind of cosmic intelligence, rather that the pantheist's metaphoric or poetic synonym for the laws of the universe. Pantheism is sexed-up atheism. Deism is watered-down theism.

The internationally prominent astrophysicist and astronomer Carl Sagan put it well: "...if by 'God' one means the set of physical laws that govern the universe, then clearly there is such a God. This God is emotionally unsatisfying...it does not make much sense to pray to the law of gravity."

-- Excerpted from Richard Dawkins' The God Delusion.
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There is God, and there seems to be a 'god-of-this-world'. One is real, the other is not, by whatever name or non-name it is called. "Reality" is the name given the god-of-this-world by it's down-to-earth believers. This is the name given an illusion that it might replace true reality. If prayer is what is top-most in your mind, then most are praying for the reality of a non-reality. It's laws are its oracles, and scientists its high priests. The "reality" of this world saves its denizens from reality. Yet it is emotionally unsatisfying. What else would anyone expect of an idol? Do you actually believe this universe gives birth to you? Here, cause and effect are reversed, denying our Father his Fatherhood for an illusionary substitute. This universe is powered by the mind of the Son of God. It is intended to mask the truth. It's oneness is well hidden, but remains nontheless. To believe that you originate from this universe is to believe you are your own creator. The universe turns this idea against you, making it your creator. If that's true, you have no control, and are now set up to be a victim. It can get ugly.



Jesus
 
Einstein certainly held, as his constant appeal to God showed, that without God nothing can be known, but what did he really mean by his appeal to Spinoza? Once in answer to the question "Do you believe in the God of Spinoza?" Einstein replied as follows:

I can't answer with a simple yes or no. I'm not an atheist and I don't think I can call myself a pantheist. We are in the position of a little child entering a huge library filled with books in many different languages. The child knows someone must have written those books. It does not know how. The child dimly suspects a mysterious order in the arrangement of the books but doesn't know what it is. That, it seems to me, is the attitude of even the most intelligent human being toward God. We see a universe marvellously arranged and obeying certain laws, but only dimly understand these laws. Our limited minds cannot grasp the mysterious force that moves the constellations. I am fascinated by Spinoza's pantheism, but admire even more his contributions to modern thought because he is the first philosopher to deal with the soul and the body as one, not two separate things. 26



"From the viewpoint of a Jesuit priest I am, of course, and have always been an atheist.... I have repeatedly said that in my opinion the idea of a personal God is a childlike one. You may call me an agnostic, but I do not share the crusading spirit of the professional atheist whose fervor is mostly due to a painful act of liberation from the fetters of religious indoctrination received in youth. I prefer an attitude of humility corresponding to the weakness of our intellectual understanding of nature and of our being."





Looks to me he took the only position logic supports.



Agnostic
 
Quote from volente_00:

Einstein certainly held, as his constant appeal to God showed, that without God nothing can be known, but what did he really mean by his appeal to Spinoza? Once in answer to the question "Do you believe in the God of Spinoza?" Einstein replied as follows:

I can't answer with a simple yes or no. I'm not an atheist and I don't think I can call myself a pantheist. We are in the position of a little child entering a huge library filled with books in many different languages. The child knows someone must have written those books. It does not know how. The child dimly suspects a mysterious order in the arrangement of the books but doesn't know what it is. That, it seems to me, is the attitude of even the most intelligent human being toward God. We see a universe marvellously arranged and obeying certain laws, but only dimly understand these laws. Our limited minds cannot grasp the mysterious force that moves the constellations. I am fascinated by Spinoza's pantheism, but admire even more his contributions to modern thought because he is the first philosopher to deal with the soul and the body as one, not two separate things. 26



"From the viewpoint of a Jesuit priest I am, of course, and have always been an atheist.... I have repeatedly said that in my opinion the idea of a personal God is a childlike one. You may call me an agnostic, but I do not share the crusading spirit of the professional atheist whose fervor is mostly due to a painful act of liberation from the fetters of religious indoctrination received in youth. I prefer an attitude of humility corresponding to the weakness of our intellectual understanding of nature and of our being."





Looks to me he took the only position logic supports.



Agnostic
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Enlightening post... thanks vol :)
 
Quote from volente_00:

....

Looks to me he took the only position logic supports.

Agnostic
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"As he took the only position logic supports
Agnostic"

Aren't you now illogically theist.
 
Quote from volente_00:

Interesting story on what your opportunity cost of living in the dark was. Curious on how you found something that others on here say does not exist ?
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I got down on my knee's and sincerely asked for him and then I simply trusted.

I now have a close friend that is a Minister at a hospital and she tells me that on the death bed even the most cynical convert and accept God.

The old saying "there are no atheists in the foxholes" is a very valid one.

Even the folks on this forum have still yet to meet the maker but they will, when their time has come.

GOD gives EVERYONE the choice sooner or later... and he has "his" ways of showing us his power and glory in "his" time.

So there is no need to argue with these folks, state your testament for their encouragement and show them GOD exists through example rather then words, and finally just pray for them.
 
Quote from Joab:

I got down on my knee's and sincerely asked for him and then I simply trusted.
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yuk.
Any place outside a Church , that would be considered insanity or perversion.
 
Quote from stu:

"As he took the only position logic supports
Agnostic"

Aren't you now illogically theist.
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Puts me on the exact same level as a illogically atheist.



:)





I have been on both sides. Seeing one's father in their 40's lying there lifeless on an emergency room table will make a 20 year old question anything far more than a logical argument. All I can say from my experience is without it, I was angry and bitter and living an empty life. With it in my life, things are as close to perfect as a I could want. Maybe it is a random correlation or maybe, just maybe there is an unexplained truth to it. I know what God did for me. The question is. What can he do for you ?
 
Quote from Thunderdog:

P.S. If anything, Einstein was a pantheist. [/i]
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"I can't answer with a simple yes or no. I'm not an atheist and I don't think I can call myself a pantheist."




I still like Einstein's view, a genius saying that there is something out there but our minds are to limited to begin to grasp the concept to understand.
 
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