For my Christians Friends

[smilingsynic]

Quote from TraderZones:

Quote from smilingsynic:

1. There is no substantiated historical evidence that Jesus was God. This is entirely a matter of faith.

As opposed to all the evidence of everyone else who claimed to be God?

The fact is, there is a large amount of evidence for his claims in the existence of several hundred fulfilled prophecies. It is quite unlikely that you ever did an objective analysis of them, or even did the standard cursory look of a "skeptic", who is able to dismiss everything out of hand whether he grasps it or not.

The so-called prophecies are so vague that any number of individuals could claim that they were the Messiah.

If Jesus fulfilled the prophecies so obviously, then why did the Jewish people reject him. After all, the Old Testament is THEIR holy book.

I have conducted much more than a cursory look. I have a degree from an evangelical university (minored in Bible), and have a Ph.D. in religious history. Believe me, I know my Bible!

 

[Free Thinker]

Quote from TraderZones:

Quote from smilingsynic:

1. There is no substantiated historical evidence that Jesus was God. This is entirely a matter of faith.

As opposed to all the evidence of everyone else who claimed to be God?

The fact is, there is a large amount of evidence for his claims in the existence of several hundred fulfilled prophecies. It is quite unlikely that you ever did an objective analysis of them, or even did the standard cursory look of a "skeptic", who is able to dismiss everything out of hand whether he grasps it or not.


Try doing your homework first before displaying so much ignorance. You don't even qualify as a rank amateur.

maybe you should do some homework yourself.

http://www.theskepticalreview.com/tsrmag/983front.html
What about all of the prophecy fulfillments? Biblicists almost always ask this question when their belief in biblical inerrancy is challenged. No doubt those who ask the question sincerely believe that prophecy fulfillment is irrefutable proof that the Bible was divinely inspired, but in reality the question reflects a naive view of the Bible for which no credible evidence exists. The "evidence" most often cited by prophecy-fulfillment proponents will usually fall into two categories: (1) Unverifiable claims by biased biblical writers that certain events fulfilled certain prophecies. (2) "Fulfillments" of prophecies that were probably written after the fact.

http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/proph/long.html
Prophecies, Promises, and Misquotes in the Bible


http://www.amazon.com/Bible-Prophecy-Fulfillment-Tim-Callahan/dp/0965504700
Tim Callahan has done the rational thing and examined hundreds of verses from the Bible claimed to be "prophecy" to see if they meet four simple tests:
1) Is it true, false, or too vague to be specifically interpreted?
2) If true, was it written before or after the fact?
3) If written before the fact, was its fullfillment something that could be logically predicted based on the knowledge of the time?
4) Was the prophecy directive or deliberately fulfilled by someone with knowledge of the prophecy?

There is not a single "prophecy" that meets these four tests.

 

[smilingsynic]

Quote from TraderZones:

Quote from smilingsynic:

Most of the so-called historical evidence of Jesus's existence was composed decades after his death.

Please post your proof of this on this thread, thanks...

The principal sources on the life of Jesus are the first four books of the New Testament: Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John.

The dates for the composition of these books vary. Matthew, from about AD 50 to over 70; Mark, from 50 to the 60's; Luke , from 60's to the 80's; and John, from 85 to the end of the century.

Jesus was crucified in the late 20's-early 30's.

Obviously, these books appeared decades after.

They are not primary sources.

 

[smilingsynic]

Quote from TraderZones:

Quote from smilingsynic:


This can be said for most historical characters. Perhaps we should dismiss every such person without "firsthand evidence? The fact is, there are far more copies of the New Testament from the century or two following Christ's lifetime than any character or book in history. Hundreds to thousands of partial and complete works.

Most Jewish writings are from strong oral traditions. Your complaint against written evidence overlooks that this was the main way that information was passed on, and usually, quite accurately.

Secondly, Josephus, Jewish writings and Roman writings have significant amounts to say about his effect and presence.

Try doing your homework first before displaying so much ignorance. You don't even qualify as a rank amateur.

Josephus was not even born until after Jesus's death.

Which Roman writings composed during Jesus's lifetime speak of Jesus? Give some examples, please.

And as for strong oral traditions might have truth in them, but it is hard to verify those as truth.

The fact that you stoop low as to engage in a personal attack shows a lack of maturity.

 

[smilingsynic]

Quote from hcour:

My fav fantasy story from the bible is Noah's Ark. 2 of every species of animal, all on one biiiiiig boat. Do Christians ever consider how many species of JUST INSECTS there are? Is there anything more ridiculous?

Is it any less fantastical than Santa Claus?

Harold

Of course it was impossible. Over 50,000 species of dinosaurs alone are known to have existed.

Imagine for a second if the story WERE real. Some dinosaurs crapped a ton a day. A ton. Imagine Noah and the boys cleaning that stuff up!

Talk about a shit job.

 

[Turok]

TraderZones:
>Try doing your homework first before displaying
>so much ignorance. You don't even qualify as a
>rank amateur.

smilingsynic:
>I have a degree from an evangelical university
>(minored in Bible), and have a Ph.D. in religious
>history.

TZ, perhaps you should do *your* homework before popping off regarding others.

ROFLAO.

JB

 

[I am...]

Quote from smilingsynic:

The principal sources on the life of Jesus are the first four books of the New Testament: Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John.

The dates for the composition of these books vary. Matthew, from about AD 50 to over 70; Mark, from 50 to the 60's; Luke , from 60's to the 80's; and John, from 85 to the end of the century.

Jesus was crucified in the late 20's-early 30's.

Obviously, these books appeared decades after.

They are not primary sources.

You are indeed a scholar. These sources conformed to an evolved theology. The principle sources were attacked as the theology continued to evolve. For example, "Words of the Master" is gone from history, and the 'sayings' gospel of Thomas was almost destroyed. The lack of respect for original source material is seen in how a good 30% of Thomas' gospel was added later by the rumor-mill.

In other words, do not discount the extent of man's resistance to the truth. It denies man's existence. Man has a way of using it to support his existence by appropriating language and capitalizing on general ignorance.

Jesus

 

[I am...]

Quote from smilingsynic:

The so-called prophecies are so vague that any number of individuals could claim that they were the Messiah.

If Jesus fulfilled the prophecies so obviously, then why did the Jewish people reject him. After all, the Old Testament is THEIR holy book.

You are right. There is not necessarily any correlation. Many promoted a link, which is why the NT starts with a geneology threading through Hebrew lines. It makes me special and subverts my message. I told the truth about equality and oneness. What prophecy applies to me applies to all, and visa versa.

Jesus

 

[I am...]

Quote from smilingsynic:

1. There is no substantiated historical evidence that Jesus was God. This is entirely a matter of faith.

2. Most of the so-called historical evidence of Jesus's existence was composed decades after his death. In terms of primary historical documents (first-hand evidence), evidence is nil.

1. You are right. But I believed it, and so did many of those who met the persona "Jesus". I proved it to myself by ignoring the laws of this world...such as death. Each must prove it to himself, that he is the same as I, equal to God. As he does, miracles will light his path.

2. Primary documentation was attacked. So it is "nil". What you think of and call "Christianity" is not what I taught. What I taught is subversive to the fantasy that makes this world. Whether written or spoken, the truth is "enemy" to the world. Stephen was stoned, and his primary document "Words of the Master" was appropriated, retranslated, and discarded.

Jesus

 

[I am...]

Quote from smilingsynic:

Actually, even if Jesus did exist, in the end it does not matter, since historical evidence exists that Christianity is based on unwarranted assumptions.

Adam and Eve are not historical. The whole creation story, the naming of the animals, and such did not happen. The evidence that humans appeared hundreds of millions of years after life appeared is overwhelming.

No Adam and Eve, then therefore no original sin.

No original sin, then no need for a Saviour.

A.) True enough. Only an "echo" of the original can be heard through the din of voices. It does not matter because I can still get the job done, along with my brothers. The world is, has been, under deconstruction. As far as I am concerned, it is finished.

B.) Right. They are not. Adam symbolizes a pre-space/time condition of mind. It then sleeps and splits. Later, the "second Adam" wakes and unifies back to the One Mind.

C. ) Right. There is no original sin. However, there is a belief in sin, and a belief in guilt and a belief in fear. These are phsycological abberations, invoked for the experience of something different than reality. They are deep seeded, and are used to build and maintain this world as a fantasy in the One Mind.

D.) Right. There is no need to save what cannot ever be changed: The pristine perfection and innocence of the One Mind, equal to it's Creator. Salvation, then, is a *game* that happy children play. Children live in fantasy worlds. They are very adept at playing 'make believe'. And they are also adept at stopping whatever game they are playing to switch to another, or none at all. Salvation - the quitting of a game of pretend - comes from One Self. Each is saved by Self, including "Jesus". Each one who surrenders to Self becomes a link in an unbroken chain of salvation from delusion. When it is finished, the world will have passed away. In the end, self-concepts are replaced by Self-reality. And that Self is One. It is equal to God, created by "our Father" to create like Him, not to make fantasy worlds of make-believe.

Jesus