Fatal shooting in Denver, probably self defense

gwb-trading said:
So let me ask... if an obviously armed individual sucker punches you without provocation knocking off your hat and glasses.... you back up to deescalate and the armed individual charges you spraying you with bear spray with the intent of disabling you and continuing their attack without retaliation. Do you have the right to shoot this armed individual and kill them in self defense?

Keep in mind that Colorado has a clear "Stand Your Ground: law.

Colorado self-defense law allows people to use force to defend themselves or others when they reasonably believe it necessary to protect against imminent harm, and they use only the degree of force appropriate for the situation.

In some cases, this means you can use deadly force. You do not have to withdraw from an altercation before defending yourself. To raise your right to defend yourself, though, you cannot be the aggressor.

1. When is self-defense justified in Colorado?
Self-defense is a legal defense to a criminal accusation. It quietly admits that you committed the crime. However, it argues that you only did it in order to defend yourself from harm. If successful, self-defense justifies a crime. It means you were only acting out of self-preservation.1 A successful self-defense argument means you are not liable for the crime.

Proving a self-defense case involves showing:

    • You reasonably believed that you were about to suffer imminent and unlawful force,
    • You reasonably believed that immediate force was the required to protect yourself, and
    • You used a degree of force that you reasonably believed would be necessary to prevent it.
In some cases, deadly force can be required for your self-defense.

People defending themselves in Colorado rarely have to retreat before using force. Instead, they are generally allowed to stand their ground. This is true even if they use deadly force in defense.

However, not all cases of self-defense are justified. Self-defense is not a legal defense if you were the aggressor in the fight. Deadly force also is not an option if you were defending your property, but not yourself. The only exception is if you were trying to prevent an arson.

1.1 How much force can you use?
You can only use as much force as you reasonably believe is necessary to protect yourself.

In many cases, this means only using as much force as you are being threatened with. However, the degree of force that is justified depends on the situation.

Example: Paul punches George. George takes out a gun and shoots Paul. George may have used too much force for a self-defense argument.

1.2 When is deadly force available?
Deadly force can be used in some circumstances for self-defense. You have to reasonably believe that:

    • You are in imminent danger of being killed or getting severely hurt,
    • The assailant is committing a burglary and is about to use physical force against the occupant, or
Your ability to use deadly force is at its peak if you are in your home. This is Colorado’s “Make My Day” law. It is at its weakest if you are only defending your property, not your person.

1.3 Stand Your Ground law
Colorado follows “Stand Your Ground” law. This law allows you to defend yourself without retreating from a fight, first. It allows people to use reasonable and appropriate force – including deadly force – without withdrawing.3

Unlike Colorado’s “Make My Day” law, Stand Your Ground applies outside the home, as well.

Example: The driver of a car is trying to run Robert over. Robert pulls out his gun and shoots the driver without trying to get out of the way.4

Stand Your Ground can be a defense for people who are trespassing on someone else’s property. However, it only allows trespassers to use self-defense against unlawful force.5 Because property owners can lawfully use force against a trespasser, there are some situations where trespassers cannot claim self-defense.
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Mace is a repellant weapon, not the same as a knife or gun or lead pipe. Person getting maced did not need to be involved and coudl have ran off to get away from the mace and clear out and go to the cops. If the guy did not persue him with the mace then cleary there was no imminent danger.

The law needs to clearly criminalize vigilantism and stop this bullshit stand your ground means I have the right to stand here in the open public and if you use a non lethal weapon I dont have to run or evade or deescalate, I can just take out my gun and blow you away.
 
El OchoCinco said:
Does macing justify a shooting? Seems the reaction was way overboard. If you mace me I can step back and get away from the stream and you are not going to kill me.

This is why having so many arms on the street and the police and politicians not returning order is a mistake.
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First let's get the context of the situation correct -- The security guard in this situation was "stepping back to get away from the stream" in an effort to deescalate -- the obviously armed attacker was aggressively rushing the security guard while spraying bear spray. Keep in mind that the aggressor had already punched the security guard knocking off his hat & glasses in a totally unprovoked assault.

If the armed aggressor already attacked the victim by punching them and is macing them as the aggressor in the situation --- then the victim of the unprovoked attack certainly has reason to believe imminent danger of getting severely hurt and can use deadly force. As written in Colorado state law.

IMO this is an obvious case of self-defense under Colorado Law --- but we will see what the legal system decides.

You might want to keep in mind that this is an armed security guard paid to protect a news crew - he simply not run away and meet the expectations of his job. He must stand his ground -- which is allowed under state law --to protect the news crew. He already attempted to back away to deescalate -- which was already going above the requirements.
 
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El OchoCinco said:
Does macing justify a shooting? Seems the reaction was way overboard. If you mace me I can step back and get away from the stream and you are not going to kill me.

This is why having so many arms on the street and the police and politicians not returning order is a mistake.
More...

Con. logic dictates it does as you may become impaired and disarmed. For similar dynamics look at con defense of police officer who shot at man who stole his stun gun and was fired upon
 
Spike Trader said:
Trayvon didn't even have mace on him.
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Trayvon was the physical aggressor and physically assaulted George Zimmerman. Trayvon was shot when he was sitting on top of George Zimmerman punching him. Florida held a trial - the justice system found George Zimmerman not guilty.

This being said there were no winners in this situation -- and it should be noted that both Trayvon Martin and George Zimmerman had plenty of issues.
 
More info...

Police identify security guard suspected in fatal shooting during Denver protests
Matthew Dolloff was working as private security for a television station
https://www.denverpost.com/2020/10/11/denver-protest-shooting-suspect-9news-matthew-dolloff/

Police identified a 30-year-old man as the suspect in a fatal shooting during dueling protests Saturday in downtown Denver.

Matthew Robert Dolloff remained in jail Sunday on suspicion of first-degree murder in the shooting, jail records show. Dolloff was working as a private security guard for Denver television station 9News when the shooting occurred, the television station has said.

Denver police arrested Dolloff on suspicion of shooting and killing a man after a confrontation at the protests downtown. The man who died has not been publicly identified by officials.

Photos of the incident show the man slap Dolloff and use pepper spray. Dolloff then shot the man, according to the photos. Police detained Dolloff at the scene.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1315337220841107456

Hundreds gathered at Civic Center on Sunday for the two demonstrations. Dozens of socialists and communists scheduled a food drive as a counter-protest to a planned rally by conservative groups.
 
Shoe on the other foot, cons would be saying that the mace sufficiently incapacitates a person to where they can't properly defend themselves, thus the perception that their life is in danger is reasonable.
 
gwb-trading said:
So let me ask... if an obviously armed individual sucker punches you without provocation knocking off your hat and glasses.... you back up to deescalate and the armed individual charges you spraying you with bear spray with the intent of disabling you and continuing their attack without retaliation. Do you have the right to shoot this armed individual and kill them in self defense?

Keep in mind that Colorado has a clear "Stand Your Ground: law.

Colorado self-defense law allows people to use force to defend themselves or others when they reasonably believe it necessary to protect against imminent harm, and they use only the degree of force appropriate for the situation.

In some cases, this means you can use deadly force. You do not have to withdraw from an altercation before defending yourself. To raise your right to defend yourself, though, you cannot be the aggressor.

1. When is self-defense justified in Colorado?
Self-defense is a legal defense to a criminal accusation. It quietly admits that you committed the crime. However, it argues that you only did it in order to defend yourself from harm. If successful, self-defense justifies a crime. It means you were only acting out of self-preservation.1 A successful self-defense argument means you are not liable for the crime.

Proving a self-defense case involves showing:

    • You reasonably believed that you were about to suffer imminent and unlawful force,
    • You reasonably believed that immediate force was the required to protect yourself, and
    • You used a degree of force that you reasonably believed would be necessary to prevent it.
In some cases, deadly force can be required for your self-defense.

People defending themselves in Colorado rarely have to retreat before using force. Instead, they are generally allowed to stand their ground. This is true even if they use deadly force in defense.

However, not all cases of self-defense are justified. Self-defense is not a legal defense if you were the aggressor in the fight. Deadly force also is not an option if you were defending your property, but not yourself. The only exception is if you were trying to prevent an arson.

1.1 How much force can you use?
You can only use as much force as you reasonably believe is necessary to protect yourself.

In many cases, this means only using as much force as you are being threatened with. However, the degree of force that is justified depends on the situation.

Example: Paul punches George. George takes out a gun and shoots Paul. George may have used too much force for a self-defense argument.

1.2 When is deadly force available?
Deadly force can be used in some circumstances for self-defense. You have to reasonably believe that:

    • You are in imminent danger of being killed or getting severely hurt,
    • The assailant is committing a burglary and is about to use physical force against the occupant, or
Your ability to use deadly force is at its peak if you are in your home. This is Colorado’s “Make My Day” law. It is at its weakest if you are only defending your property, not your person.

1.3 Stand Your Ground law
Colorado follows “Stand Your Ground” law. This law allows you to defend yourself without retreating from a fight, first. It allows people to use reasonable and appropriate force – including deadly force – without withdrawing.3

Unlike Colorado’s “Make My Day” law, Stand Your Ground applies outside the home, as well.

Example: The driver of a car is trying to run Robert over. Robert pulls out his gun and shoots the driver without trying to get out of the way.4

Stand Your Ground can be a defense for people who are trespassing on someone else’s property. However, it only allows trespassers to use self-defense against unlawful force.5 Because property owners can lawfully use force against a trespasser, there are some situations where trespassers cannot claim self-defense.
More...
I would say yes to your question. However, I haven't seen the video or photos that illustrate the series of events you laid out in your question. If there is video that demonstares that scenario, please let me know where it is. Everything that I have seen starts basically at the slap/punch. What happened before that?

With respect to the stand your ground law in Colorado, I don't think that it is as clear as you think. There is clearly subjectivity to the law. I am not familiar with any case law regarding stand your ground in Colorado.

For example, look at the language below from your post:

1.1 How much force can you use?
You can only use as much force as you reasonably believe is necessary to protect yourself.

In many cases, this means only using as much force as you are being threatened with. However, the degree of force that is justified depends on the situation.

Example: Paul punches George. George takes out a gun and shoots Paul. George may have used too much force for a self-defense argument.
 
WeToddDid2 said:
I would say yes to your question. However, I haven't seen the video or photos that illustrate the series of events you laid out in your question. If there is video that demonstares that scenario, please let me know where it is. Everything that I have seen starts basically at the slap/punch. What happened before that?

With respect to the stand your ground law in Colorado, I don't think that it is as clear as you think. There is clearly subjectivity to the law. I am not familiar with any case law regarding stand your ground in Colorado.

For example, look at the language below from your post:

1.1 How much force can you use?
You can only use as much force as you reasonably believe is necessary to protect yourself.

In many cases, this means only using as much force as you are being threatened with. However, the degree of force that is justified depends on the situation.

Example: Paul punches George. George takes out a gun and shoots Paul. George may have used too much force for a self-defense argument.
More...

Videos have been posted in the early pages of this thread.
 
gwb-trading said:
Keep in mind that the aggressor had already punched the security guard knocking off his hat & glasses in a totally unprovoked assault.
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How do you know it was "totally unprovoked assault"?

From the pictures that you posted, I don't see that series of events with any reasonable certainty.

The pictures are not in chronological order so it is hard to tell what exactly took place. It would be much better if there was a video.

After looking at the pictures, it looks like the following scenario took place:

  1. The security guard pushed the guy that got shot.
  2. The guy that got shot then hit the security guard.
  3. The security guard drew his weapon.
  4. The guy that got shot pepper sprayed him.
  5. The security guard shot him.
 
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