Does Israel have right to exist in current form?
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Wael, what part of "The Jewish population increased by 470,000 between World War I and World War II while the non-Jewish population rose by 588,000." do you not understand. And what part of this statistics does not make it blatantly clear that not just the jews but also the arabs were migrating en-masse to Palestine at the time and the Arabs have therefore no right whatsoever to claim exclusive ownership of the land. The partition was a fair deal, too bad you did not accept it.
Really? I don't even want to discuss the wars you (arabs/muslims) started between yourself, between your sects, with Israel, with other countries, I don't want to talk about the genocide in Darfur or thousands of terrorist attacks and hundreds of thousands of innocent civilians killed by arab/muslim terrorists all over the world (Europe, South America, Russia, Israel, Australia...)
But I just want to remind you that your arab brethren expelled 900,000 jews from the arab countries the second half of the last century. And those jewish refugees did not have to steal someone else's land, they were all resettled in Israel. This is what Jordan in theory should do with the Palestinian refugees and west bank residents. But given that it is not going to happen Israel is and has always been willing to accept a two state solution, you and your ilk want the whole Israel.
"You can't steal and ethnically cleanse" my ass Wael, cut this drama queen crap, no one is buying.
Hey, Jews are people too. Of course, anybody, Jewish or otherwise, will regard the land in which he/she was born and raised as the homeland. In addition, the Jews have the historical argument that Israel is the original homeland of the Jews.
The post-Holocaust influx of Jews decidedly tipped the balance in favor of the Jews in their ongoing conflict with the local Arabs, partly because these Holocaust survivors were in no mood to play by anybody's rules.
The hopes that all Israelis would be equal was naive given the savagery of the conflict in the area and the fact that the Arabs were opposed to the establishment of the Jewish state.
You are stupider than I thought! way stupider! Did you read what I put? If your claims are true, which are not...How can all of that land be cultivated by us? If what you are saying is true, which is not, who cultivated that land.
Did you read your Ben Gurion's admission that you were isolated enclaves in a sea of Palestinians in prosperous cities towns and villages on a very well cultivated land.
What part don't I understand??? your insistence on lying and forging. That is the part that I do not understand
Probably every nation in the world was established through coercion at some time or other; borders are usually determined by war or threat of war.
The right of the US to exist isn't questioned because its non-existence is not a viable or reasonable alternative, not because the US has any moral right to exist. Even the conquered peoples of America wouldn't want the US to stop existing. The non-existence of Israel is constantly entertained because it would have no serious repercussions on the world in general and would, in fact, be cause for great relief to huge numbers of (non-Jewish) people.
However, on another level: Existence precedes rights. The "right to exist" is a nonsensical concept when applied to the self. In other words, it makes no sense for Israel to question its right to exist and so Israel is morally free to continue to struggle to survive with or without any contrived right to do so and with or without any approval from outside.
On another level again, "Israel" is a reification and thus doesn't exist to begin with.. but I don't suppose this thread will be helped along with this kind of thinking.
Ahad Ha-Am (Asher Ginsberg) wrote the following in 1891: "In all things it is our custom to learn nothing from the past for the future. There is certainly one thing we could have learned from our past and present history: how careful we must be not to arouse the anger of other people against ourselves by reprehensible conduct. How much more, then, should we be careful, in our conduct toward a foreign people among whom we live once again, to walk together in love and respect, and needless to say in justice and righteousness. And what do our brethren in Eretz Israel do? Quite the opposite! They were slaves in their land of exile, and they suddenly find themselves with unlimited freedom, the kind of wild freedom to be found only in a country like Turkey. This sudden change has engendered in them an impulse to despotism, as always happens when 'a slave becomes a king,' (Proverbs 30:22) and behold they walk with the Arabs in hostility and cruelty, unjustly encroaching on them, shamefully beating them for no good reason, and even bragging about what they do, and there is no one to stand in the breach and call a halt to this dangerous and despicable impulse. To be sure our people are correct in saying that the Arab respects only those who demonstrate strength and courage, but this is relevant only when he feels that his rival is acting justly; it is not the case if there is reason to think his rival's actions are oppressive and unjust. Then, even if he restrains himself and remains silent forever, the rage will remain in his heart and he is unrivaled in 'taking vengeance and bearing a grudge.' (Leviticus 19:18)" "Emet Me-Eretz Yisrael" (Truth from the Land of Israel), 29 May 1891, 21 Iyyar 5651 Translated by Alan Dowty.
Ben Gurion (who became Israel's first Prime Minister) and Zionist leadership before 1948 war had no intention to drive the native Palestinians out.
As early as 1917 (when Palestine was 96% Christian/Muslim and 3% Jewish), Ben Gurion stated "Within then the next twenty years, we must have a Jewish majority in Palestine." (Shabtai Teveth, p. 43). In 1936 he stated that the future Israel must "become a force, and the Arabs respect force..these days it is not right but might which prevails. It is more important to have force than justice on one's side" (Shabtai Teveth, p. 191). In 1937 "The compulsory transfer of the Palestinian Arabs from the valleys of the proposed Jewish state could give us something which we never had...MORE than a state, government and sovereignty-this is national consolidation in a free homeland." (Righteous Victims, p. 142). in 1938, he wrote "With compulsory transfer we would have vast areas .... I support compulsory population transfer. I do not see anything immoral in it. But compulsory transfer could only be carried out by England .... Had its implementation been dependent merely on our proposal I would have proposed; but this would be dangerous to propose when the British government has disassociated itself from compulsory transfer. .... But this question should not be removed from the agenda because it is central question. There are two issues here : 1) sovereignty and 2) the removal of a certain number of Arabs, and we must insist on both of them." (Expulsion Of The Palestinians, 117). In Feb 1948 "The war will GIVE us the land. The concept of 'ours' and 'not ours' are ONLY CONCEPTS for peacetime, and during war they lose all their meaning." (Benny Morris, p. 170 & Expulsion Of The Palestinians, p. 180). And in early May 1948, Ben-Gurion approved establishing the "Transfer Committee" to oversee "the cleaning up nikui in Hebrew of the Palestinian Arab settlements, cultivation of Arab fields and their settlement by Jews, and the creation of labor battalion to carry out this work." (Benny Morris, p. 137). Yitzhak Rabin wrote in his diary soon after Lydda's and Ramla's occupation on 10th-11th of July 1948: "After attacking Lydda later called Lod and then Ramla, .... What would they do with the 50,000 civilians living in the two cities ... What is to be done with the population?, waving his hand in a gesture which said: Drive them out!. 'Driving out' is a term with a harsh ring, .... Psychologically, this was on of the most difficult actions we undertook". (Soldier Of Peace, p. 140-141 & Benny Morris, p. 207) .David Ben Gurion also recognized that "The (upcoming) war will give us the land. The concept of 'ours' and 'not ours' are only concepts for peacetime, and during war they lose all their meaning". In his diaries he said regarding Palestinian refugees �We must do everything to ensure they never do return� and to the Sunday Times �The old will die and the young will forget�. Under Ben Gurion's direction, Transfer Committee was officially set up to effect ethnic cleansing. I don't understand your optimism. "Why should the Arabs make Peace? If I was an Arab leader, I would never make terms with Israel. That is natural; we have taken their country." Ben Gurion in 1956 Quoted by Nahum Goldman, former President of World Zionist Congress, in "The Jewish Paradox" Weidenfeld and Nicholson, 1978, p99.
Ben Gurion (who became Israel's first Prime Minister) and Zionist leadership before 1948 war had no intention to drive the native Palestinians out.
As early as 1917 (when Palestine was 96% Christian/Muslim and 3% Jewish), Ben Gurion stated "Within then the next twenty years, we must have a Jewish majority in Palestine." (Shabtai Teveth, p. 43). In 1936 he stated that the future Israel must "become a force, and the Arabs respect force..these days it is not right but might which prevails. It is more important to have force than justice on one's side" (Shabtai Teveth, p. 191). In 1937 "The compulsory transfer of the Palestinian Arabs from the valleys of the proposed Jewish state could give us something which we never had...MORE than a state, government and sovereignty-this is national consolidation in a free homeland." (Righteous Victims, p. 142). in 1938, he wrote "With compulsory transfer we would have vast areas .... I support compulsory population transfer. I do not see anything immoral in it. But compulsory transfer could only be carried out by England .... Had its implementation been dependent merely on our proposal I would have proposed; but this would be dangerous to propose when the British government has disassociated itself from compulsory transfer. .... But this question should not be removed from the agenda because it is central question. There are two issues here : 1) sovereignty and 2) the removal of a certain number of Arabs, and we must insist on both of them." (Expulsion Of The Palestinians, 117). In Feb 1948 "The war will GIVE us the land. The concept of 'ours' and 'not ours' are ONLY CONCEPTS for peacetime, and during war they lose all their meaning." (Benny Morris, p. 170 & Expulsion Of The Palestinians, p. 180). And in early May 1948, Ben-Gurion approved establishing the "Transfer Committee" to oversee "the cleaning up nikui in Hebrew of the Palestinian Arab settlements, cultivation of Arab fields and their settlement by Jews, and the creation of labor battalion to carry out this work." (Benny Morris, p. 137). Yitzhak Rabin wrote in his diary soon after Lydda's and Ramla's occupation on 10th-11th of July 1948: "After attacking Lydda later called Lod and then Ramla, .... What would they do with the 50,000 civilians living in the two cities ... What is to be done with the population?, waving his hand in a gesture which said: Drive them out!. 'Driving out' is a term with a harsh ring, .... Psychologically, this was on of the most difficult actions we undertook". (Soldier Of Peace, p. 140-141 & Benny Morris, p. 207) .David Ben Gurion also recognized that "The (upcoming) war will give us the land. The concept of 'ours' and 'not ours' are only concepts for peacetime, and during war they lose all their meaning". In his diaries he said regarding Palestinian refugees �We must do everything to ensure they never do return� and to the Sunday Times �The old will die and the young will forget�. Under Ben Gurion's direction, Transfer Committee was officially set up to effect ethnic cleansing. I don't understand your optimism. "Why should the Arabs make Peace? If I was an Arab leader, I would never make terms with Israel. That is natural; we have taken their country." Ben Gurion in 1956 Quoted by Nahum Goldman, former President of World Zionist Congress, in "The Jewish Paradox" Weidenfeld and Nicholson, 1978, p99.
Khahahahahahahahaha
Are you surprised dddooo???
Furl the flag
Gamal Nkrumah reflects on Sarkozy's bad week
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Sarkozy
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As if his marital challenges were not enough cause for concern, "Sarco the Sayan" has suddenly emerged as the most infamous accolade of French President Nicolas Sarkozy. The influential French daily Le Figaro last week revealed that the French leader once worked for -- and perhaps still does, it hinted -- Israeli intelligence as a sayan (Hebrew for helper), one of the thousands of Jewish citizens of countries other than Israel who cooperate with the katsas (Mossad case-officers) .
A letter dispatched to French police officials late last winter -- long before the presidential election but somehow kept secret -- revealed that Sarkozy was recruited as an Israeli spy. The French police is currently investigating documents concerning Sarkozy's alleged espionage activities on behalf of Mossad, which Le Figaro claims dated as far back as 1983. According to the author of the message, in 1978, Israeli prime minister Menachem Begin ordered the infiltration of the French ruling Gaullist Party, Union pour un Mouvement Populaire. Originally targeted were Patrick Balkany, Patrick Devedjian and Pierre Lellouche. In 1983, they recruited the "young and promising" Sarkozy, the "fourth man".
Ex-Mossad agent Victor Ostrovsky describes how sayanim function in By Way Of Deception: The Making and Unmaking of a Mossad Officer. They are usually reached through relatives in Israel. An Israeli with a relative in France, for instance, might be asked to draft a letter saying the person bearing the letter represents an organisation whose main goal is to help save Jewish people in the Diaspora. Could the French relative help in any way? They perform many different roles. A car sayan, for example, running a rental car agency, could help the Mossad rent a car without having to complete the usual documentation. An apartment sayan would find accommodation without raising suspicions, a bank sayan could fund someone in the middle of the night if needs be, a doctor sayan would treat a bullet wound without reporting it to the police.
And, a political sayan ? It's rather obvious what this could mean. The sayanim are a pool of people at the ready who will keep quiet about their actions out of loyalty to "the cause", a non-risk recruitment system that draws from the millions of Jewish people outside Israel.
http://weekly.ahram.org.eg/2007/868/in2.htm
Please challange me to authanticate this story dddooo...Please do!!!!
