CNN: First charges filed in Mueller investigation

[Cuddles]

Actually, it is even bigger and more complex than I want to get into through posts. Mixed in with the issues that I already mentioned, is - and we were talking about Flynn and mannaforte- the issue of whether an American citizen was improperly surveilled through a fisa warrant when the law required them to seek a normal Article 3 court warrant once the person became a target themself rather than just a collateral intercept from surveillance of a foreigner. You can call it "nonsense" but it is the type of nonsense that often takes a few million dollars and several years in the appellate courts to deal with.

So we are at the
"Sure evidence exists, but you can't use it" stage?

 

[TreeFrogTrader]

So we are at the
"Sure evidence exists, but you can't use it" stage?

Probably not for just the indictment stage because indictment does not require much.

But at the trial phase, yeh, most definitely, you are at the stage of fully examining whether evidence was lawfully obtained and admissible- BIGTIME.

 

[exGOPer]

LOL, a court issue warrant is now improperly surveilled?

 

[vanzandt]

I do seem to recall having called it. Monday market's going to be wild.

Not saying it won't, but why do you think that?

 

[Max E.]

First charges filed in Mueller investigation
http://www.cnn.com/2017/10/27/politics/first-charges-mueller-investigation/index.html

A federal grand jury in Washington, DC, on Friday approved the first charges in the investigation led by special counsel Robert Mueller, according to sources briefed on the matter.

The charges are still sealed under orders from a federal judge. Plans were prepared Friday for anyone charged to be taken into custody as soon as Monday, the sources said. It is unclear what the charges are.

A spokesman for the special counsel's office declined to comment.

Mueller was appointed in May to lead the investigation into Russian meddling in the 2016 election.

Under the regulations governing special counsel investigations, Deputy Attorney General Rod Rosenstein, who has oversight over the Russia investigation, would have been made aware of any charges before they were taken before the grand jury for approval, according to people familiar with the matter.

(More at above url)

If Mueller charges Manafort for taking lobbying money from Russia and doesnt charge Hillary for taking 100 million+ from Russia then we all know the investigation is a joke.

 

[UsualName]

Actually, it is even bigger and more complex than I want to get into through posts. Mixed in with the issues that I already mentioned, is - and we were talking about Flynn and mannaforte- the issue of whether an American citizen was improperly surveilled through a fisa warrant when the law required them to seek a normal Article 3 court warrant once the person became a target themself rather than just a collateral intercept from surveillance of a foreigner. You can call it "nonsense" but it is the type of nonsense that often takes a few million dollars and several years in the appellate courts to deal with.

A fisa warrant was issued against manafort not once but twice. He was a direct target. Fisa warranta have to be renewed every 90 days too and he has been under surveillance since 2014.

Getting a fisa warrant against Americans has a very high standard. That means the fbi provided evidence he “knowingly engaged in clandestine intelligence activities”.

I don’t know what charges he may face but if it has to do with Russia, the fisa warrants will be fine. Either way this guy’s goose is cooked.

 

[UsualName]

If Mueller charges Manafort for taking lobbying money from Russia and doesnt charge Hillary for taking 100 million+ from Russia then we all know the investigation is a joke.

Hillary Clinton took 100+ million dollars from Russia? Holy cow!

When?

 

[exGOPer]

If Mueller charges Manafort for taking lobbying money from Russia and doesnt charge Hillary for taking 100 million+ from Russia then we all know the investigation is a joke.

What's stopping Trump's DOJ from investigating this? That's right, it's BS as usual.

 

[Tony Stark]

What's stopping Trump's DOJ from investigating this? That's right, it's BS as usual.

Agreed.Sessions didn't recuse himself from Hillary investigations.If Hillary gets charged does the 9 other department heads ,the independent nuclear regulatory commission head and The State of Utah nuclear regulator also get charged because they all had to sign off too

GOP Sen. John Barrasso also said he was satisfied with the deal so he has to be be charged as well

 

[TreeFrogTrader]

A fisa warrant was issued against manafort not once but twice. He was a direct target. Fisa warranta have to be renewed every 90 days too and he has been under surveillance since 2014.

Getting a fisa warrant against Americans has a very high standard. That means the fbi provided evidence he “knowingly engaged in clandestine intelligence activities”.

I don’t know what charges he may face but if it has to do with Russia, the fisa warrants will be fine. Either way this guy’s goose is cooked.

I am not going to try the case here. Don't be surprised if his legal team takes a different view.

Further, while your comments have some merit, they do not counter my point. Mannafort and Flynn each have their own story so you can't just put them both in a shake and bake bag and give the same reasoning. But in regard to Mannafort, there were two or three rounds of fisa warrants, and yes, the standards to get a fisa warrant are high and even higher for an American citizen, and yes, possibly/probably the were legitimately authorized (although I don't know, it requires the intelligence community to have been truthful with the court about what evidence they had and I don't automatically accept that).

However, the law is clear that the fisa warrant is only for the purpose of authorizing the collection of foreign intelligence- not for the purpose of collecting evidence of a crime. Obviously those two areas overlap because you can come across crimes. And where such and same occur with an American citizen you must immediately go to a normal Article 3 court and get a criminal warrant if you are treating them or have a reasonable expectation that they could become the target of a criminal investigation. That does not negate your fisa warrant for collection of foreign intelligence but neither does it let you use what you get as evidence- you need a criminal warrant for that at that point.

As you said, "he was a direct target." If they followed the law, then they are all set. If they just had a fisa warrant and are using that to do a criminal investigation. Then refer to my comments about their lawyers probably going to have more to say.

Not going to try it here but it is not a slam dunk yet for anyone. And Mueller is just trying to do shock and awe against mannafort - recall that he raided his home in the middle of the night- to get him to provide info on the trump campaign. It may work or it may not. It could be counterproductive too where his lawyers just say "fuck em, just plead the fifth, and we have perfectly good defenses." In fact that is the risk Mueller or any prosecutor runs. You can do shock and awe on one defendant in order to let everyone in the pipeline know that they need to get serious about cooperating but it can go the other way and a pantload of people who felt like they would just help out because they have not done anything wrong, suddenly just plead the fifth and tell the prosecutors to have a nice day.

We shall see.