A peek inside the Health Care Bill

[Vinny1]

Quote from dumb_mother:

i'm realistic- if this crap gets passed i won't be using it. i'll pay for real health care on the side so i won't have to wait until my leg falls off to be treated. the worst thing about this is that it really, really hurts the 15-95% group of this country (you know just 4 out of 5 people) currently most of them receive health insurance from their jobs and get good treatment. with the passage of this bill, to get those bottom 15% who don't have coverage (many because they are young and feel invulnerable) the bottom 95% will see medical rationing and wait times to see doctors that are currently unimaginable. sure you may tax the top 5% a bit more, but i assure you they won't be waiting in the same lines that the bottom 95% will now have to wait in for health care. so ask yourself this, because 4 out of 5 of you are currently receiving the best health care in the world with almost no delay- should everyone sacrifice so that a few deadbeats can get free health care? i answer with a wholehearted "NO!"

You are a true idiot. Do you think that it is ok that many people in this country are losing their jobs and their health insurance? There are sick people without jobs that can't get health insurance in the private market because of their pre-existing conditions or can't afford to pay the high cost of high risk plans or don't qualify for Medicaid. Someone has to take care of them.

If the U.K. can offer health insurance to all of its citizens paid for by taxes, so can we.

For your information, roughly 1 out of 6 people in this country don't have health insurance. If we add all of them, premiums can come down, since everyone will be paying into the system. Who wouldn't want lower premiums. With everyone covered, maybe wait times will increase by 20% to see a doctor, since 20% more people are now covered. No big deal. Doctors and hospitals will be happy, because they won't end up treating people and then getting stiffed on the bill. The American Medical Association is for this bill. Everyone should be for it.

 

[the1]

"The problem with socialism is that eventually you run out of other people's money" -- Margaret Thatcher

Quote from Index piker:

When will short sighted people like you ever learn socialism/communism has failed to produce wealth everywhere it has been tried.

I'm sure there were arrogant know nothings who thought the same in east germany before 1990.

The real tragedy is you probably won't live long enough to reap the sheer stupidity of the conditions you so gleefully want to inflict upon others.

 

[jorgez]

I know it sounds stupid in a country as rich as US, but in poorer countries people take better care of their own health and dont need hosiptals as much

 

[Mnphats]

Quote from Vinny1:

You are a true idiot. Do you think that it is ok that many people in this country are losing their jobs and their health insurance? There are sick people without jobs that can't get health insurance in the private market because of their pre-existing conditions or can't afford to pay the high cost of high risk plans or don't qualify for Medicaid. Someone has to take care of them.

You fool. There are many state programs for health care available for the poor or under insured. You effectively want shift 20% of the gdp to the government, good lord for only 30 or so million people. The government has proven over and over that they are completely inept at running anything. What will it take for these commies to learn that government isn't the solution, its the problem?

 

[the1]

Bingo! One of the things that has made America so great -- a MCD's on every street corner -- is also the thing that's bringing the country to its knees with extremely sick people. Diabetes is becoming an epidemic in this country. You don't have to look far to find someone with Type II Diabetes. One of the ways to lower health care costs is to live healthier lives but you can't change the culture of a country overnight.

Where in this plan do I see tax breaks for buying broccoli? If you can keep people out of the Doctor's office you lower costs. The government is trying to lower costs by rationing health care. If you get people on the Superfood Wagon rationing won't be needed. It will take care of itself. <b>Where are the "eat more broccoli" campaigns?</b> Oh boy, I think I smell a business opportunity.

Quote from jorgez:

I know it sounds stupid in a country as rich as US, but in poorer countries people take better care of their own health and dont need hosiptals as much

 

[Tigerjaw]

It really is amazing, isn't it that these COLLECTIVISTS hold to their ridiculous notion that 'the state' will make better decisions and run things better than people deciding what they want for themselves. The programs of the 60s that brought us the financial disasters of the Medicare and Medicaid programs - with fraud and inefficiency, which are recognized as being effectively bankrupt. Yet these fools think that even much more of the same will bring costs down ! What exactly do the politicians and bureaucrats run well now ? It has been said that its likely that some member of our family are currently getting their health care through a govt program . . . yeah, - - how well has that been working out for all of us ?

The emotional hook used to pull the naive in, is that "we'll show those greedy health care insurance companies". They wrote the freakin' bill dummies ! They look forward to a law requiring every citizen to buy 'approved' insurance from them - - without having to compete at all.

Yes, health care needs to be improved - - - by getting govt the hell out of it, so that people can choose among truly competitive companies for themselves - - in the same manner they shop and buy their auto and home insurance. Then, costs will come down. - - -

Only the brainwashed ' yes we can' crowd chanters would believe any of this b.s. in the health care insurance rip off bill. This bill is not for our interests. Its not about cost. Its about getting your money - and forcing you to do so. Its also about controlling something all of us need, so they can bribe & control you. - -

P.S. - - when someone tries to push this on you and uses the ole' 'don't be selfish.' crap - - - their underlying meaning is "Don't try to decide what's best for yourself & your family - - - Big Brother knows whats best for you, whether you like it or not."

 

[jorgez]

Quote from the1:

Bingo! One of the things that has made America so great -- a MCD's on every street corner -- is also the thing that's bringing the country to its knees with extremely sick people. Diabetes is becoming an epidemic in this country. You don't have to look far to find someone with Type II Diabetes. One of the ways to lower health care costs is to live healthier lives but you can't change the culture of a country overnight.

Where in this plan do I see tax breaks for buying broccoli? If you can keep people out of the Doctor's office you lower costs. The government is trying to lower costs by rationing health care. If you get people on the Superfood Wagon rationing won't be needed. It will take care of itself. <b>Where are the "eat more broccoli" campaigns?</b> Oh boy, I think I smell a business opportunity.

There are many poorer countries with much to offer with advice to healthy living.
But US is richest country in the world (I read that in an american newspaper), so how do other countries offer such advice.

 

[the1]

You bring up an extremely important point -- insurance companies. Since these companies operate for profit and operate in an Oligopoly there is little incentive to control costs. The costs are just passed on to the subscribers. If you remove the "for profit" element then theoretically, costs would immediately be reduced by that amount but doing so would welcome in a completely socialized plan.

To the best of my knowledge other countries do not operate on the "insurance" method. BCBS doesn't exist in Norway or Japan, or other successful health care nations but it does here. I strongly believe everyone should have access to health care, regardless of their social status so that leaves two simple questions:

1. Operate in a semi-capitalistic market or,
2. Operate in a socialist market.

Choose your poison.

Quote from Tigerjaw:

It really is amazing, isn't it that these COLLECTIVISTS hold to their ridiculous notion that 'the state' will make better decisions and run things better than people deciding what they want for themselves. The programs of the 60s that brought us the financial disasters of the Medicare and Medicaid programs - with fraud and inefficiency, which are recognized as being effectively bankrupt. Yet these fools think that even much more of the same will bring costs down ! What exactly do the politicians and bureaucrats run well now ? It has been said that its likely that some member of our family are currently getting their health care through a govt program . . . yeah, - - how well has that been working out for all of us ?

The emotional hook used to pull the naive in, is that "we'll show those greedy health care insurance companies". They wrote the freakin' bill dummies ! They look forward to a law requiring every citizen to buy 'approved' insurance from them - - without having to compete at all.

Yes, health care needs to be improved - - - by getting govt the hell out of it, so that people can choose among truly competitive companies for themselves - - in the same manner they shop and buy their auto and home insurance. Then, costs will come down. - - -

Only the brainwashed ' yes we can' crowd chanters would believe any of this b.s. in the health care insurance rip off bill. This bill is not for our interests. Its not about cost. Its about getting your money - and forcing you to do so. Its also about controlling something all of us need, so they can bribe & control you. - -

P.S. - - when someone tries to push this on you and uses the ole' 'don't be selfish.' crap - - - their underlying meaning is "Don't try to decide what's best for yourself & your family - - - Big Brother knows whats best for you, whether you like it or not."

 

[Tigerjaw]

'Socialized' medicine hasn't worked particularly well. The option you didnt list is that of a truly free market system. (Versus the crony 'capitalism' run by politicians/special interests to protect their own cartels.) People attack 'capitalism', but it hasn't actually existed in the U.S. (except on the small local level) for a very long time.
Taking profits out of the system, is the very opposite of what is needed. In a Truly free market (not what we have), profits provide a signal for where resources should be directed to best fill peoples desires and needs (which they determine for themselves.)
Ever visited a Communist country ? Well I have - - - nothing worked. Shortages. Corruption. Total inefficiency. The use of force or the threat of force to get people to comply rather than allowing them to choose. A complete mess. - - Just like the programs the federal government runs in this country.

http://mises.org/store/Socialism-P55.aspx

And here's a secret - - - all the 'isms' are usually just pure bullshit. They are used by politicians to b.s. the crowds. Its been the same throughout history. Back in the USSR they spoke about some Communist 'workers paradise' where the state would 'eventually' just fade away and everything would be run by 'the workers' and everyone would share. - - The party elites lived the high life off the back of the serfs, and nothing 'faded away'. - - Hmmmm - - - the politicians won't be under this 'health care' plan, and Al Gore lives in a huge mansion and flies around in a jet while making a billion dollars. Sound familiar ? "Power to (some of) the People " !

Quote from the1:

You bring up an extremely important point -- insurance companies. Since these companies operate for profit and operate in an Oligopoly there is little incentive to control costs. The costs are just passed on to the subscribers. If you remove the "for profit" element then theoretically, costs would immediately be reduced by that amount but doing so would welcome in a completely socialized plan.

To the best of my knowledge other countries do not operate on the "insurance" method. BCBS doesn't exist in Norway or Japan, or other successful health care nations but it does here. I strongly believe everyone should have access to health care, regardless of their social status so that leaves two simple questions:

1. Operate in a semi-capitalistic market or,
2. Operate in a socialist market.

Choose your poison.

 

[the1]

Absolutely right. We don't live in a Capitalist Society, we live in a Corporatist Society. Corporations run the US Government with Goldman Sachs being the Commander in Chief. Tell me if this doesn't sound like America?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corporatism

Quote from Tigerjaw:

'Socialized' medicine hasn't worked particularly well. The option you didnt list is that of a truly free market system. (Versus the crony 'capitalism' run by politicians/special interests to protect their own cartels.) People attack 'capitalism', but it hasn't actually existed in the U.S. (except on the small local level) for a very long time.
Taking profits out of the system, is the very opposite of what is needed. In a Truly free market (not what we have), profits provide a signal for where resources should be directed to best fill peoples desires and needs (which they determine for themselves.)
Ever visited a Communist country ? Well I have - - - nothing worked. Shortages. Corruption. Total inefficiency. The use of force or the threat of force to get people to comply rather than allowing them to choose. A complete mess. - - Just like the programs the federal government runs in this country.

http://mises.org/store/Socialism-P55.aspx

And here's a secret - - - all the 'isms' are usually just pure bullshit. They are used by politicians to b.s. the crowds. Its been the same throughout history. Back in the USSR they spoke about some Communist 'workers paradise' where the state would 'eventually' just fade away and everything would be run by 'the workers' and everyone would share. - - The party elites lived the high life off the back of the serfs, and nothing 'faded away'. - - Hmmmm - - - the politicians won't be under this 'health care' plan, and Al Gore lives in a huge mansion and flies around in a jet while making a billion dollars. Sound familiar ? "Power to (some of) the People " !