Zen and The Art of Trading

saturnine · Oct 7, 2004

A trade is a trade

A trade is much more than a trade

A trade is just a trade afterall

EtfTraderLives · Oct 7, 2004

Here's some Zen:
Just trade and shut up.

martys · Oct 8, 2004

"POKER RULE#14: Learn to play against other patient players... Put in with this group he finds that there are other patient players like himself. He learns that there is a whole other level that exists. He learns that there is a patience so slow that it is almost Zen-like."

I am not patient enough with my entry price which is an area to be improved... I am not looking for perfection either.

dbphoenix · Oct 8, 2004

Quote from martys:

"POKER RULE#14: Learn to play against other patient players... Put in with this group he finds that there are other patient players like himself. He learns that there is a whole other level that exists. He learns that there is a patience so slow that it is almost Zen-like."

I am not patient enough with my entry price which is an area to be improved... I am not looking for perfection either.

I've been thinking about this rule a lot lately. When the pace is so slow, and the range is covered by tick, tick, tick, tick, reading the "intent" can become very difficult. Weighing and balancing the probabilities becomes difficult as well, and one must either work for a precision that might be unfamiliar, or at least unpracticed, or just jump in with wide stops and hope for the best, which is generally a giant step backwards.

On a day like this, one could imagine the other players as being bored, or inattentive, or even that they're lying in wait to trick you. But perhaps they're just extraordinarily patient.

Tick, tick, tick . . .

dbphoenix · Oct 8, 2004

Incidentally, I would not have thought that we could fill this gap in one day, but that sort of thing is impossible to predict. All one can do is play the hand he's dealt.

martys · Oct 8, 2004

Quote from dbphoenix:

I've been thinking about this rule a lot lately. When the pace is so slow, and the range is covered by tick, tick, tick, tick, reading the "intent" can become very difficult. Weighing and balancing the probabilities becomes difficult as well, and one must either work for a precision that might be unfamiliar, or at least unpracticed, or just jump in with wide stops and hope for the best, which is generally a giant step backwards.

On a day like this, one could imagine the other players as being bored, or inattentive, or even that they're lying in wait to trick you. But perhaps they're just extraordinarily patient.

Tick, tick, tick . . .

I am not particularly patient (a sucker)... I just walk away if I can and let the patient experts play the patient game. Yes, I miss opportunities but I only want bits and pieces... it's pitiful but it's OK with me.

martys · Oct 9, 2004

"POKER RULE#15: Begin by playing tight, but don't forget to stay tight... The important thing is not who possesses the control and discipline at the start of the game, but who possesses it at the middle, the end, and all points throughout."

I got these from the quotes of Vincent Lombardi:
"There is only one kind of discipline: perfect discipline. If I do not enforce and motivate discipline, then I am a potential failure in my job."
"It is easy to have faith in yourself and have discipline when you're a winner, when you're number one. What you've got to have is faith and discipline when you're not yet a winner."

Discipline is about 100% of the time, not 99.
As Marty Schwartz said "Winning is a habit, so is losing."

I think POKER RULE#14 and RULE#15 is about taking comfort in sticking to a plan despite what had happened before and what will happen after. It is less about fighting and more about surrendering.

kiwi_trader · Oct 9, 2004

Marty,

You might be interested in a book called The Disciplined Online Investor by Hendlin which expands on your last point in a discussion of "Assertive and Yeilding modes of Control."

martys · Oct 9, 2004

Quote from kiwi_trader:

Marty,

You might be interested in a book called The Disciplined Online Investor by Hendlin which expands on your last point in a discussion of "Assertive and Yeilding modes of Control."

Thanks. I think it is really a fine balance... It's how you manage what's going on inside your head. I don't think just chanting the mantra "Discipline! Discipline! Discipline!" is going to work for the long run because if you don't even give that little voice a chance to speak out, ultimately the ego is going to rebell to get your attention in other ways and that's not healthy. Just like what Buddha said about mind in meditation, it is not going to work being too tight or being too loose. Another traditional analogy would be taming a wild horse by tying her to a post. She's not going to be happy. You need to give her some contained space to run but at the same time you don't want her to get away from you.

dbphoenix · Oct 10, 2004

Quote from martys:

I think it is really a fine balance... It's how you manage what's going on inside your head. I don't think just chanting the mantra "Discipline! Discipline! Discipline!" is going to work for the long run because if you don't even give that little voice a chance to speak out, ultimately the ego is going to rebell to get your attention in other ways and that's not healthy. Just like what Buddha said about mind in meditation, it is not going to work being too tight or being too loose. Another traditional analogy would be taming a wild horse by tying her to a post. She's not going to be happy. You need to give her some contained space to run but at the same time you don't want her to get away from you.

Printed books are by their nature linear. Even e-books have a flow from beginning to end. However, it would be a mistake to assume that the structure which Phillips chose for his book is the best one. For example, skipping ahead to later rules, such as #43 and following, might be appropriate here.

Just a thought.