Zen and The Art of Trading

[chinook]

Quote from Flashboy:

Chinhook,

Have you done this.. if so, have you found the results to be advantageous??

I've done both meditation and visualizations separately. I haven't tried combining them. Let me tell you, meditations were helpful in everyday life since they made me realize that I have the power of controlling my own mind. And the all of these negative thoughts can be controlled.

I had initial success with visualizations but then I realized that I had subtle conflicts in my trading plan. Once I finalize my plan, I'll go back to meditation and visualizations.

 

[dbphoenix]

Quote from mogul:

you KNOW you're on tilt if you start playing certain hands on impulse and on hope

BUT how easy is it to recognize your doing the same thing in trading??

This is hardly the first time I've mentioned this, but defining the setups is at least one prerequisite. Either one knows what he's looking for or he doesn't.

What many traders do, however, is try to tune into some cosmic Music Of The Markets and "feel" their way through the day. This is rarely successful.

 

[Flashboy]

Quote from mogul:

I find that after I'm up in capital for the session I sometime play out looser hands (go on mini-tilt if you will) and usually I start loosing at that point

I've done the same with trading..

Up for the day.. ahead of my goal and take a mediocre trade thinking I can afford it.. if I lose no big deal.. I'm still up for the day..

But thats some screwed up thinking.. what usually happens is .. I lose on that one.. and then start to think..

Okay.. I was up $125 for the day.. now I'm at $45.. I need to get that back..

These are things I've done in the past.. I have corrected them..

My biggest problem now is starting the day out with a loss and trying to get it back too quickly...

 

[dbphoenix]

Quote from Flashboy:


My biggest problem now is starting the day out with a loss and trying to get it back too quickly...

If you haven't read the book yet, perhaps you should. There's some good stuff in there about "letting go". If you can't do this, then one bad trade early on can poison the rest of the day.

 

[Flashboy]

Quote from dbphoenix:

If you haven't read the book yet, perhaps you should. There's some good stuff in there about "letting go". If you can't do this, then one bad trade early on can poison the rest of the day.

yes.. and all it takes is one day like that to wipe out and entire week of hard work and grinding it out..

 

[dbphoenix]

Quote from Flashboy:

yes.. and all it takes is one day like that to wipe out and entire week of hard work and grinding it out..

And you're not the only person this happens to. I screwed up my first trade because I entered the order wrong. If I had not been able to put aside that loss immediately, I don't know how long it would have taken for me to be able to trade well again. As it was, I was at least able to reject several possibilities rather than jump in for all the wrong reasons.

 

[martys]

Quote from Flashboy:

I've done the same with trading..

Up for the day.. ahead of my goal and take a mediocre trade thinking I can afford it.. if I lose no big deal.. I'm still up for the day..

But thats some screwed up thinking.. what usually happens is .. I lose on that one.. and then start to think..

Okay.. I was up $125 for the day.. now I'm at $45.. I need to get that back..

These are things I've done in the past.. I have corrected them..

My biggest problem now is starting the day out with a loss and trying to get it back too quickly...

I have both the problems above although now they are under the watch now. I agree with chinook that visualization can play a big part. It's been used in professional sports for decades. The subconscious mind cannot distinguished what is being visualize and what is being actually experienced. nowadays whenever I did something I am not supposed to. I just try to scratch it (making money is not the most important to me at that point). And then back off and correct the whole sequence in my head a few times. Instead of taking the trade, I would visualize myself pass on the trade patiently, I visualize myself feeling OK missing the trade, I visualize myself sitting comfortably with the loss or even profit.... ZZZZZ I TRY to do that instead of replaying the negative sequence in my head and beating myself up. Even if the visualization does not work, I think it is not a bad way to keep my head occupied at the point.
I just think I have been PRACTICING the wrong stuff in my head and worse under the hypnotic effect of the tired body and one-pointed mind. Consciously replace the negative self-talk with the positive one, replay the imaginary corrected sequence of how thing should be done until it becomes "comfortable." We all know what is right and what is wrong but mental closure is just tough when we let the little voice inside saying dirty words because it will be in habit to repeat itself. Well that inner child crap need some spanking. Most of the time, we are probably good enough to bypass the chattering when our mind is clear and aware (just imagine the number of times you want to kill somebody) but when the mind is cluttered, I am afraid I will fall for it.

Mind under stress = chattering = confusion vs.
Mind in natural awareness = seeing chattering as chattering = freedom

 

[martys]

Quote from chinook:

It is the self-talk/chatter. Most of the time my mind is occupied with the mistakes that I've done in the past and worries about the future. Perhaps what I think as mistakes happened through some random events that I have no control over. These thoughts are not the absolute single "reality"-- My mind creates them. Meditation clears all these thoughts.

Meditation will certainly quiet the mind down and slow down the chattering but that is not the goal in itself, it is more of giving a chance for us to bring back our awareness. The traditional practical instructions explains that the real goal of meditation is not to shut it up. I got this wrong many times myself. It is more about regaining the natural clarity of the mental landscape so that THOUGHTS being as many as there are, no matter what are the contents, they will not affect the mind. Ultimately the thoughts and perceptions will be realize as never being apart from the mind itself and not to be abandoned.

 

[dbphoenix]

Perhaps it's time to jump ahead a bit. If not, just ask Magna to delete the post.

Rule#22: You cannot apply the principles of Zen until you know the game perfectly -- inside and out.

Having the proper attitude of Zen calm and confidence does no good if you do not know the game. Zen will not make up for, or offset, incorrect . . . play. As a result, there is a certain amount of ordinary, old-fashioned work involved in mastering the game -- a certain amount of sweating the white beads before the days of tranquility come along.

The most important thing to know, above all things, is exactly how to play the game. No outlook, attitude, or philosophy is as important as this.

Good [trading] is not a "mood", it is a series of individual decisions. It does not occur by "Buddhistically" meditating ourselves into some dreamlike mental state, but rather by knowing the game well and being in synch with it -- by inserting ourselves correctly into the flow of what is going on in front of us.

No Zen attitude will make up for this lack. You may be quite Zen-like and have all the attributes of Zen calm, but if you play incorrectly, the result is that you will get destroyed. Practice, and long hours at the table, are indispensable.

 

[kiwi_trader]

Rule 22 is interesting and to me raises a couple of issues:

Is it really important to know (it) inside and out?

My view is that one or two tested and internalized setups with good exit rules is sufficient and because trading is about probabilities you just accept that you can't cover every possibility. Some entries make money, some make a loss. Sometimes you catch a move, sometimes you miss it.

Is a defined positive expectancy game plan (knowing the game) most peoples problem or is it the zen aspects?

I think the first is the early killer and the second is the later killer.