Your position has been shifting, while asianprop has even increased the incentives over time.
Asianprop seems to me to be the horse to bet on. I take him as the winner so far.
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You are more likely to become a top Hollywood actor or popstar than profitable trader
- Thread starter crgarcia
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Your position has been shifting, while asianprop has even increased the incentives over time.
Asianprop seems to me to be the horse to bet on. I take him as the winner so far.
Quote from asiaprop:
Schizo/ Ghost,
could you please make up your mind whether you want to pursue this or not. I need your full contact information (including phone number) which we can handle in PM, as I have already done with Schizo's alleged real name and address. This is not adding anything to this bet but a necessary requirement for my own protection. I am the one who pays up in case I lose the bet, you guys stand to lose nothing. So I think its most reasonable to give me the chance to personally contact you to verify your identity. I am tired of arguing back and forth about something very obvious. If you cannot submit your contact info then say so clearly. But I am not willing to carry on with a pathetic debate about the exchange of the most basic contact information. I had time for this during the past weekend but I am too busy for this during the week.
Please CLEARLY state where you stand. Thanks.
Asianprop won!
Of course not.Quote from markcfd:
No one is going to send you anything you fool
They got only losses.
The rest are churning brokers shills, with no money to invest.
It can't be done indeed.Quote from tomdavis:
I don't owe you dick, Pancho. And I don't give a shit what you think.
The point is, beginning traders shouldn't give up just because some idiot loser says it can't be done.
Daytrading is only promoted by brokers to get more commissions.
Brokers don't care if you lose.
Long term profitability is possible.Quote from the1:
I've been trading profitably for 21 years. No, I have not been up every year but over the course of 21 years I have been very profitable. Even the best investors in the world have down years. Does that mean profitable investors don't exist? There are plenty of profitable traders out there.
In fact, I asked my trading/tax accountant about it one time and he said 36% of his clients are profitable but none of them could make a living at it if they are trading their own account. He said the only ones he knew who could make a living at it were the ones who manage other people's money.
I have been very profitable buying on recessions.
Frequent trading is a loser's game.
Only the brokers profit (from the commissions).
I'm trying to convince nave-traders who were suckered into frequent trading by commission hungry brokers.Quote from Gabfly1:
Whom are you trying to convince?
This proves long term sentiment trading (which I do) is profitable in the long run.Quote from TrueProp:
I see you're still around. I thought that you had shriveled into your hole of despair never to rise again, but at least you're persistent at something --- it's too bad you couldn't apply that persistence to something more constructive.
(I buy on panics, usually recessions), I sell on overoptimism and stay on T-Bills, I never short).
You are ignoring the large cemetery of losers, extremely pretty, even more than the Hollywood actresses you watch, yet are waiting tables.Quote from tomahawk:
2 reasons why I believe there is more opportunity to become a successful trader:
1) to be successful in Hollywood or in pop music you generally have to be attractive .... not so in trading, AT ALL
2) to have a chance at a successful career in Hollywood or in pop music you generally have to start quite young, and those careers usually peak sometime before or around middle age .... in trading you can start in your 40's or 50's and be very successful; in fact you're more likely to have some money saved to work with, which can make all the difference.
I'd not spend a dime (and spend something even more pricey, my time) on auditing fabricated statements.Quote from Fireplace:
Garcia, Bob111 is willing to actually put in the effort to prove you wrong, will you be 'man enough' to take him up on his offer?
There is not even a single DOCUMENTED case of a daytrader profitable in the long run.Quote from asiaprop:
nor should they be given the impression that all who claim "I am a winning day trader" are speaking the truth. 99% of all the publicized traders who have made a lot of money are swing or position traders, not day traders. I think this should help to keep things in perspective.
You are a prop trader, so you have an agenda:Quote from TrueProp:
First of all, trading successfully for 10 years is quite an accomplishment, no matter the timeframe. I don't know tomdavis, but I am a prop trader, and I don't know ANYONE with 6 screens or anyone who stares at their screen for 8+ hours/day...except for people that work in various industries in corporate America.
I have been a full-time daytrader for almost 4 years (first & only job since graduating college) and I've begun momentum trading in my long-term account. Catching momentum moves for multiple points over a period of days makes for a better lifestyle, more liquidity, bigger positions, and more $$$$$. But don't think for a second that daytrading isn't highly lucrative. You can think it isn't, but do realize that that thought is entirely for your own ignorant benefit.
I know literally about 100 profitable daytraders. For every 1 of those 100, I've probably seen at least 4 or 5 people fail without ever making a dime --- which is not all that surprising since most people don't have the constitution to trade ANY timeframe profitably.
If you know any good traders, than you're probably familiar with the fact that trading is rarely stressful. The only time a trader becomes stressed is if they hold a loser too long or they just don't know what the hell they're doing. If position trading takes up so much of your time, I'm guessing your procedures aren't streamlined.
How, with confidence, can you double speak so easily? First you ask the guy to send you audited statements, and then a few lines later you say, "Successful traders do not need to brag or inform about their success, they simply put in the work, period." Really.
You worked at a bank. Why would you know successful daytraders? I imagine that you may view us (our rumored existence that is) with condescension. The thing is, we don't really care. We live by our own rules. I wear jeans and sneakers to the office everyday. If I don't want to trade for a day, a week, a month, I can do that any time I want. I can trade from anywhere in the world that I want to trade from. Again, you worked at a bank -- in what capacity is anyone's guess. Either way I'm not here to demean your career choices.
I really couldn't care less about crgarcia's opinion b/c his reputation of disgust for successful traders precedes him, so I regard his drivel as simple entertainment. But people like you that are so adamant about a lifestyle/career you clearly know absolutely nothing about I find to be....well...right at home here at ET.
No. I'm not sending any statements to be validated. Why not you ask? Well as you said, "Successful traders do not need to brag or inform about their success, they simply put in the work, period."
Night.
suckering more fools into prop trading.
Of course you pretend you have seen profitable daytraders.
Get an honest job where you don't have to lie,
immorality catches you later in life, when you get a child with an incurable disease don't cry the poetic justice.
Quote from crgarcia:
There is not even a single DOCUMENTED case of a daytrader profitable in the long run.
Why don't you document your real name and address so we can all verify you aren't Baron's son being paid $100 a week to start absolutely ignorant threads on a trader's website just to generate page views.
then you should ready much more clearly: Here is what I wrote! It said very clearly that it is a one sided bet: You show me your track record, if you cannot match the required returns then you stand to lose nothing other than proving me right, if I lose I pay out money to you (I adjusted the payout because you begged me to). I mean, English is not my native language but I think it is crystal clear what I meant. You seemed to not even understand what this was all about , lol!!!!
1) I take that risk, PM me, I even pay for your first class airline ticket and hotel to the city in Asia I live. You made the offer, I publicly invite you.
P.S.: This offer applies to anyone with a 20%+ annual return track record over 10 years who wants to take a free vacation in one of the coolest cities in the world.
2) But hey, I am not a dick, so only for you we make it 7 years so that before me and everyone else you can claim your grand price, given you show me that you made an annualized 20% return over the 7 years which you claimed you traded.
3) I mentioned the terms very clearly, so dont fool around and pretend I was not crystal clear. I mentioned that for you I would lower it to 7 years track record with an annualized 20% return over the 7 years observation period. If you still show interest then go ahead and PM me, nothing of what I said changed.
4) Fair points though I never intended to offer cash in exchange for seeing account statements, and I keep it that way.
So it's very clear, Ghost would need to show a 7 year track record with a geometric average of at least 20% annualized per year after omitting all withdrawals and deposits. Risking to state the obvious, only day trades are included in the return calculation (Ghost can chose a time zone on which the 24 hour time frame is based within which trades need to be opened and closed). More details later, given he agrees.
Obviously, when going through an Escrow service I would require a copy of his ID plus broker statements with his name on it. He will get the same ID of mine and my own broker statements showing that I most likely beat his track record (a freebie, and I would be surprised if he had a better record than I had, though my trades are almost all longer-term trades).
5) You, schizo wrote: C'mon, what have you got to lose? I'll show you the past 10 years of my statements for a small fee. That's what you wanted, wasn't it?
You don't believe that I can do this. You think I'm bluffing, don't you? Then, think again.
1) I take that risk, PM me, I even pay for your first class airline ticket and hotel to the city in Asia I live. You made the offer, I publicly invite you.
P.S.: This offer applies to anyone with a 20%+ annual return track record over 10 years who wants to take a free vacation in one of the coolest cities in the world.
2) But hey, I am not a dick, so only for you we make it 7 years so that before me and everyone else you can claim your grand price, given you show me that you made an annualized 20% return over the 7 years which you claimed you traded.
3) I mentioned the terms very clearly, so dont fool around and pretend I was not crystal clear. I mentioned that for you I would lower it to 7 years track record with an annualized 20% return over the 7 years observation period. If you still show interest then go ahead and PM me, nothing of what I said changed.
4) Fair points though I never intended to offer cash in exchange for seeing account statements, and I keep it that way.
So it's very clear, Ghost would need to show a 7 year track record with a geometric average of at least 20% annualized per year after omitting all withdrawals and deposits. Risking to state the obvious, only day trades are included in the return calculation (Ghost can chose a time zone on which the 24 hour time frame is based within which trades need to be opened and closed). More details later, given he agrees.
Obviously, when going through an Escrow service I would require a copy of his ID plus broker statements with his name on it. He will get the same ID of mine and my own broker statements showing that I most likely beat his track record (a freebie, and I would be surprised if he had a better record than I had, though my trades are almost all longer-term trades).
5) You, schizo wrote: C'mon, what have you got to lose? I'll show you the past 10 years of my statements for a small fee. That's what you wanted, wasn't it?
You don't believe that I can do this. You think I'm bluffing, don't you? Then, think again.
Quote from Ghost of Cutten:
Where did you get that idea? Both me and schizo are going to be risking $75k if we agree to terms and then can't come up with the track record we claim.
A bet is a pretty standard proposition - two people put up a stake, and the loser pays their stake to the winner. It's two-sided risk, not one-sided. Only having you on the hook would be totally unfair.
That's why we are (or were) negotiating just as hard as you for the precise terms of the bet. Why should we just let you name any conditions you feel like, and have to jump through hoops on your say so, when we have $75k of our own cash on the line too? If I'm putting up $75k then the least I expect is for someone to stick to basic ethical standards like keeping private communication private, acting like a trustworthy person (i.e. the type of person I would expect to stick to a bet, rather than wiggle out on technicalities).
Even if you negotiated in good faith, you've been rather naive here and made some totally inaccurate assumptions, which unfortunately just make you seem like a flake. It's actually quite insulting that you assumed we weren't risking any cash.
Unfortunately, because of how you've conducted yourself, I just don't feel comfortable trusting you either to keep my info private, or to actually pay up if you do get proven wrong. To go through 10 year old statements line by line to isolate the daytrades is going to take a full audit which is not cheap, and even then it's not 100% proof, you can always raise a bit of doubt as to what was overnight P&L etc. I'd only do that if I am very confident you're a stand up guy who will pay once I deliver the goods.
Also, since you don't believe us, I'd just ask a simple question - why would we risk $75k if we don't have the performance to back it up? In that case it would be all downside, no upside for us. If someone is actually proposing a meaningful wager, based on information that they have access to and you don't, then generally they are very confident that they will win. People don't volunteer 5 figure bets when they know they will lose. You are at a huge informational disadvantage because we know our records and you have no clue what they are. So, it was a sucker move to take the bet - anyone can think over the conditional probabilities and work that out.
nobody wins/loses, its just sad those two clowns did not even understand what was at risk.
Sorry, but I have an extremely hard time believing any of those two that they generate any significant amount in trading altogether, let alone day trading. They changed their stance, lied about their track record (ghost did, in the beginning he claimed he a has a 7 year record but does not even have that) and all they talk about is their lawyers.
Honestly, I challenge anyone, go back re-read my posts and tell me whether I changed my bet/stance/conditions in the slightest, other than going into detail as the bet started to materialize. In contrast look at what ghost wrote about his track record, each time it got closer to closing the deal he shortened his available track record, in the end he was not even able to produce a track record, containing day trades.
Look at what schizo wrote. In a bold and cocky attitude email he wrote he takes me up for this bet and will PM me with contact information. Last time I checked the dictionary, contact information included a phone number someone can be reached at. He supplied me with an address which he may have cut out of the Sunday paper. There is no way to verify he even exists, let alone lives at stated address. I made an offer but asking me to fly there to verify his address is simply pathetic. Guys, tell me honestly, all of you have no issues to hand out your full name and full address, where your FAMILY lives, yet start wining and bitching about the phone number, even cell phone number? Give me a break. If anyone acted suspiciously then it was those two, ghostofkitten and schizophrenic. How true "losers average losers", it applies so well here. Not a single day trader came forward with anything to show for!!!!
Sorry, but I have an extremely hard time believing any of those two that they generate any significant amount in trading altogether, let alone day trading. They changed their stance, lied about their track record (ghost did, in the beginning he claimed he a has a 7 year record but does not even have that) and all they talk about is their lawyers.
Honestly, I challenge anyone, go back re-read my posts and tell me whether I changed my bet/stance/conditions in the slightest, other than going into detail as the bet started to materialize. In contrast look at what ghost wrote about his track record, each time it got closer to closing the deal he shortened his available track record, in the end he was not even able to produce a track record, containing day trades.
Look at what schizo wrote. In a bold and cocky attitude email he wrote he takes me up for this bet and will PM me with contact information. Last time I checked the dictionary, contact information included a phone number someone can be reached at. He supplied me with an address which he may have cut out of the Sunday paper. There is no way to verify he even exists, let alone lives at stated address. I made an offer but asking me to fly there to verify his address is simply pathetic. Guys, tell me honestly, all of you have no issues to hand out your full name and full address, where your FAMILY lives, yet start wining and bitching about the phone number, even cell phone number? Give me a break. If anyone acted suspiciously then it was those two, ghostofkitten and schizophrenic. How true "losers average losers", it applies so well here. Not a single day trader came forward with anything to show for!!!!
Quote from tradingjournals:
Asianprop won!
I am not asiaprop. I've been accused of it before and it's coming back so I'm posting hoping to clear it out.
Additionally,
1. I did trade at the same investment bank that he's traded at, as a prop. trader. Different teams and I came to recognize his existance in ET. All I'm saying is, he's not a piker.
2. Most likely, asiaprop's got the USD75,000. As much as this thread is entertaining... I dunno know if the "bet" is worth it.
Seriously... it's becomes quite obvious who's the wanna-be/one hit wonders and who's the real-deal by reading their past post content, regardless of their tone.
-----------------------------------
No one's asked for my opinion but because I'm posting... in terms of profitable daytraders existing...
It's hard to say... A lot of the profitable traders started off as prop traders and evolved to other styles, like the "RUSSIAN". Markets back in the days (early 2000s) were more day trader friendly with far more "Momo"-opportunity, as Schony/Worldco traders were bringing in "fair" amount of dough. As a matter of fact, when the "RUSSIAN" started his own operation, they were focused on Options unlike the style of his original firm.
Now... the markets are definitely (yet relatively) a "hedge / arb / MM / Flow" friendly. Outright trading has become tougher simply by both "hands-on" trading and quantitatively through testing.
Not to be bragging, I am one of those guys who started at a prop. firm and moved into the automated trading realm. Am I a day trader? Yes. Am I systematic trader? Yes. I can be considered a "Day Trader" because of my history but I trade in a completely different way, "ALL" of the guys I know who are still around since my early days have evolved or changed accordingly with the markets.
Quantitatively speaking, it is definitely tough (unfavorable) to trade with an old school daytrading style and make money. But when I was a daytrader I went through a few styles starting with intermarket behavior (manually finding co-integration) pattern, SOES bandits, odd-lot Bandits, Momo, Price Action scalping, inter options exchange scalping... etc. etc. That said, "Day Trading" in itself has changed too. (We never used the term "Price Action" or "Order Flow", it was all put together as "THE MARKET")
I still don't understand how all of you define day-trading as...
That all said... I don't have an opinion....
Anyways... back into hiding... seriously... I don't post with another alias...
Additionally,
1. I did trade at the same investment bank that he's traded at, as a prop. trader. Different teams and I came to recognize his existance in ET. All I'm saying is, he's not a piker.
2. Most likely, asiaprop's got the USD75,000. As much as this thread is entertaining... I dunno know if the "bet" is worth it.
Seriously... it's becomes quite obvious who's the wanna-be/one hit wonders and who's the real-deal by reading their past post content, regardless of their tone.
-----------------------------------
No one's asked for my opinion but because I'm posting... in terms of profitable daytraders existing...
It's hard to say... A lot of the profitable traders started off as prop traders and evolved to other styles, like the "RUSSIAN". Markets back in the days (early 2000s) were more day trader friendly with far more "Momo"-opportunity, as Schony/Worldco traders were bringing in "fair" amount of dough. As a matter of fact, when the "RUSSIAN" started his own operation, they were focused on Options unlike the style of his original firm.
Now... the markets are definitely (yet relatively) a "hedge / arb / MM / Flow" friendly. Outright trading has become tougher simply by both "hands-on" trading and quantitatively through testing.
Not to be bragging, I am one of those guys who started at a prop. firm and moved into the automated trading realm. Am I a day trader? Yes. Am I systematic trader? Yes. I can be considered a "Day Trader" because of my history but I trade in a completely different way, "ALL" of the guys I know who are still around since my early days have evolved or changed accordingly with the markets.
Quantitatively speaking, it is definitely tough (unfavorable) to trade with an old school daytrading style and make money. But when I was a daytrader I went through a few styles starting with intermarket behavior (manually finding co-integration) pattern, SOES bandits, odd-lot Bandits, Momo, Price Action scalping, inter options exchange scalping... etc. etc. That said, "Day Trading" in itself has changed too. (We never used the term "Price Action" or "Order Flow", it was all put together as "THE MARKET")
I still don't understand how all of you define day-trading as...
That all said... I don't have an opinion....
Anyways... back into hiding... seriously... I don't post with another alias...
Quote from TSGannGalt:
I still don't understand how all of you define day-trading as...
...
I appreciate your post, TSGannGalt, I really do. You are one of the reasonable voices.
If we cannot even define what "day trading" is, then why be someone such a hardliner "no day traders can make money" - and that is unconditional, in no-uncertainty terms?
I know there is a transition from one soul to another, but it went like this:
First: No day trader makes money. They are all losers.
Then: You make money by day trading? Show me that you are not a liar.
Then: Oh... You gotta be profitable for the past 10 years.
Then: Oh... You gotta be profitable by 20% annually for the past 10 years.
I am surprised not to see another stipulation saying "oh... your equity gotta be more than $100K... your $10,000 account doesn't count"
asianprop may or may not be a successful trader. I don't know. But if he says he is very successful in position trading, good for him. I have never doubted it nor do I care. But why when someone said he's been day trading and he's been profitable, then immediately jumped up in the air and say like liar liar pants on fire! Accusing people of painting pipe dreams about the gloriousness of day trading?
And this Garcia guy jumped back in and immediately pointed the finger and say "you work at a prop firm... you have an agenda".
Give me a break!
I think I (almost) never claimed that no day trader can make money, I said most dont make money, and I claimed the success rate (impression, empirical evidence, and published performances) of day traders is a lot lower than the one of position traders. Here are the posts in regards to my impression of the failure rate of day traders. Never in those have I claimed there does not exist a single day trader who makes money. And if it has not become apparently clear I do not include system traders that trade automated systems that were developed after rigorous back tests and statistical analysis. I am talking about the masses who have no clue, who chase indicators like addicts, who are completely unaware what is happening in global markets or in the stocks they trade, who have not the slightest clue who drives the flow and why. Yes you may dislike my tone and attitude, yet it does not give you the right to accuse me of making statements I never made:
*** In my over 15 years in finance and 10 years in professional bank trading environment have I not seen a single successful day trader, I heard/read of a handful(literally handful) but sorry, I dont think you are one of the those very rare breed.
*** 99% of all the publicized traders who have made a lot of money are swing or position traders, not day traders. I think this should help to keep things in perspective.
*** you are blatantly ignoring broker statistic. Out of 100 day traders 95 fail early over the course of several month. They are very afraid to state the full statistics, nor can they because many traders who are in the business longer than a few months tend to change brokers once in a while or dont execute through one single broker. Stating that 1 out of 4 or 5 traders makes it is wishful thinking.
P.S.: To avoid confusion of the term "prop firm" I never worked nor will I work at what many understand under the term "prop firm", which are outlets as Bright Trading, Eco,....those are firms that generally do not back traders with capital but encourage people to frequently trade in and out of positions because the firm's interest is very clear, to get a cut of the commissions such day traders generate. I work(ed) within a prop trading team as part of an investment bank. In the last firm I came to generate the highest p&l among all other traders (including MDs) just 4 months into the job after which some others outperformed. I have no reason to talk my ass or back out of bets I dared to make here but I cannot stand people bullshitting about their track record and when put on the stand they back out and each time lower their number of years they can provide proof. And cannot stand people who send their full address to anonymous people and seemingly expose their families yet start to threaten with lawyers when being asked for their contact phone number. Those things stink no matter how they explain themselves.
*** In my over 15 years in finance and 10 years in professional bank trading environment have I not seen a single successful day trader, I heard/read of a handful(literally handful) but sorry, I dont think you are one of the those very rare breed.
*** 99% of all the publicized traders who have made a lot of money are swing or position traders, not day traders. I think this should help to keep things in perspective.
*** you are blatantly ignoring broker statistic. Out of 100 day traders 95 fail early over the course of several month. They are very afraid to state the full statistics, nor can they because many traders who are in the business longer than a few months tend to change brokers once in a while or dont execute through one single broker. Stating that 1 out of 4 or 5 traders makes it is wishful thinking.
P.S.: To avoid confusion of the term "prop firm" I never worked nor will I work at what many understand under the term "prop firm", which are outlets as Bright Trading, Eco,....those are firms that generally do not back traders with capital but encourage people to frequently trade in and out of positions because the firm's interest is very clear, to get a cut of the commissions such day traders generate. I work(ed) within a prop trading team as part of an investment bank. In the last firm I came to generate the highest p&l among all other traders (including MDs) just 4 months into the job after which some others outperformed. I have no reason to talk my ass or back out of bets I dared to make here but I cannot stand people bullshitting about their track record and when put on the stand they back out and each time lower their number of years they can provide proof. And cannot stand people who send their full address to anonymous people and seemingly expose their families yet start to threaten with lawyers when being asked for their contact phone number. Those things stink no matter how they explain themselves.
Quote from Bolimomo:
I appreciate your post, TSGannGalt, I really do. You are one of the reasonable voices.
If we cannot even define what "day trading" is, then why be someone such a hardliner "no day traders can make money" - and that is unconditional, in no-uncertainty terms?
I know there is a transition from one soul to another, but it went like this:
First: No day trader makes money. They are all losers.
Then: You make money by day trading? Show me that you are not a liar.
Then: Oh... You gotta be profitable for the past 10 years.
Then: Oh... You gotta be profitable by 20% annually for the past 10 years.
I am surprised not to see another stipulation saying "oh... your equity gotta be more than $100K... your $10,000 account doesn't count"
asianprop may or may not be a successful trader. I don't know. But if he says he is very successful in position trading, good for him. I have never doubted it nor do I care. But why when someone said he's been day trading and he's been profitable, then immediately jumped up in the air and say like liar liar pants on fire! Accusing people of painting pipe dreams about the gloriousness of day trading?
And this Garcia guy jumped back in and immediately pointed the finger and say "you work at a prop firm... you have an agenda".
Give me a break!
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