Why would any educated woman be a christian? christianity hates women.

Quote from Ricter:

I wasn't saying that women aren't subordinated. My point is that the clothes we wear are not the cause.
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Actually, I think the covering up part is part and parcel. People can place different spins on it, but when a woman has to, or is expected to (same thing), cover her face or hair, then she is being diminished. She is expected to display modesty whereas the man does not. Stated differently, she is not to tempt men with her womanhood. If that should happen, it would her fault, which is why, rather than have men exercise better restraint, she must cover herself. However, you look at it, women are subordinated in religion, and it is even reflected in dress codes among fundamentalists.
 
Quote from PatternRec:

When it comes to matters of faith, there is no nice, cordial, or respectful way to present opposing or damning discourse - according to the POV of the person who has the faith. No matter how it is presented, if not presented by someone claiming to share the exact variant of the faith, it will be considered an attack upon the faith to one degree or another. So why bother with pretense?

That's what makes Mencken's quote above so poignant.
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Well that's certainly the case most of the time, but I don't agree it HAS to be that way.

On a side note I see that Mencken believed in elitism, attacked intolerance, fundamentalist Christians and had a rather low opinion of both blacks and Jews.

I supposed you'd have to call his idea of so called tolerance...selective tolerance.

Not easy to judge by just a photo of course, but he looks like a real asshole to me.
 
Quote from Gabfly1:

Actually, I think the covering up part is part and parcel. People can place different spins on it, but when a woman has to, or is expected to (same thing), cover her face or hair, then she is being diminished. She is expected to display modesty whereas the man does not. Stated differently, she is not to tempt men with her womanhood. If that should happen, it would her fault, which is why, rather than have men exercise better restraint, she must cover herself. However, you look at it, women are subordinated in religion, and it is even reflected in dress codes among fundamentalists.
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And men here are expected (have to) wear pants not dresses, even though in certain climes the dress might be more practical. Does this subordinate men? Women here have to wear something over their tits, are they being subordinated? And before you say, "yes, stop making women cover their tits!", consider that we may not want to see some womens' tits. ; )
 
Quote from Lucrum:

Well that's certainly the case most of the time, but I don't agree it HAS to be that way.
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Discuss religion often enough and you'll discover that invariably no matter how you present your argument against any aspect of the religion, it will be perceived as an attack. The only variability in the defensiveness boils down to the level of adherence to the religion that the defender maintains.

Even when done humorously and in a good natured way.

This is one of those situations where you simply don't catch more flies with honey.


On a side note I see that Mencken believed in elitism, attacked intolerance, fundamentalist Christians and had a rather low opinion of both blacks and Jews.

I supposed you'd have to call his idea of so called tolerance...selective tolerance.

Not easy to judge by just a photo of course, but he looks like a real asshole to me.
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That may be the case. But a lot of dickheads say some brilliant things that transcend their person, personality and ideologies.

The words attributed to Jesus are some of the most brilliant things of all time. And that's whether you believe in him or not. Imagine if we all followed what he said during the sermon on the mount?
 
You're making this much too complicated. My wife is fairly religious and attends church regularly. If she and the other congregants are treated well at church and she and her/our children are treated well at home, that's what forms her judgement about the church, home and other things in her life. She's interested in the here-and-now as much as she's interested in the hereafter. She's not ignorant of the bible or the history of the church, but she doesn't obsess on it either. Most women are more pragmatic than you give them credit for.


Quote from Free Thinker:

Half the people in the world commit this sin against god: they are born women.

It's an astounding thing that any women at all accept Christianity, Judaism, or Islam; these are profoundly misogynistic faiths. Throughout the Christian Bible, women are treated as chattel to be abused and misused, and uppity women are regarded as the worst of the lot, fit only to be slaughtered. There are parts of the Bible that read like snuff porn — but it's all OK, because it's the Bible, God's holy word, and if God is gonna have to choke a bitch, who are we to question it?

We can trace the attitude right back to Genesis 3:16. The Bible begins with a story that blames women for all the pain of sin in the world, and she needs to be put in her place, under the dominion of men.

"Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee."

When I started looking up woman-hating Bible quotes, I was a bit overwhelmed; it's everywhere. I won't even try to flood this article with the many contemptuous words about women that you can find there, but will give a few examples. Job 14 is an interesting one, because it at least acknowledges that men are damned, too…but why are they so troubled? Because they're born of those filthy, dirty, nasty women.

"Man that is born of a woman is of few days and full of trouble. He cometh forth like a flower, and is cut down: he fleeth also as a shadow, and continueth not. And doth thou open thine eyes upon such an one, and bringest me into judgment with thee? Who can bring a clean thing out of an unclean? not one. "

I don't think I like how the Bible talks about my mother.

This wasn't just an Old Testament aberration, either, to be superceded by the loving Jesus of the New; the apostle Paul was just as terrible a misogynist as any. Here's the classic 1 Timothy 2:8:

"I will therefore that men pray every where, lifting up holy hands, without wrath and doubting. In like manner also, that women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with shamefacedness and sobriety; not with broided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array; But (which becometh women professing godliness) with good works. Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. For Adam was first formed, then Eve. And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression. Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety."

Shut up, ladies — it's your fault we got kicked out of the garden of Eden, and you're all going to have to pay by suffering in silence.

I know the next objection apologists will make: we shouldn't read the Bible so literally, and you atheists are just as bad as the fundamentalists. The Bible has to be carefully interpreted, and we need wise men (of course) to extract the deeper truths. So let's go along with that and ask a few of the church fathers what it all means.

Let's see what Tertullian has to say — he's always fun.

"Woman is a temple built over a sewer, the gateway to the devil. Woman, you are the devil's doorway. You should always go in mourning and in rags."

Whoa. Tertullian is one of those fellows you'd really like to see psychoanalyzed; he's one warped little psycho thug. Maybe he's not representative at all, and perhaps we should look to a few Catholic saints, who will certainly be more enlightened.

Here's St John Chrysostom:

"Among all savage beasts, none is found so harmful as woman."

Ooops. Maybe St Clement will be friendlier.

"Every woman should be overwhelmed with shame at the thought that she is a woman."

St Augustine?

"Any woman who acts in such a way that she cannot give birth to as many children as she is capable of, makes herself guilty of that many murders."

Now that's a Catholic attitude. Perhaps that is the problem here, and we really need to look to the Protestant theologians. Here's what Calvin had to say:

"Woman is more guilty than man, because she was seduced by Satan, and so diverted her husband from obedience to God that she was an instrument of death leading to all perdition. It is necessary that woman recognize this, and that she learn to what she is subjected; and not only against her husband. This is reason enough why today she is placed below and that she bears within her ignominy and shame."

Same old story again. I was brought up Lutheran, which meant all I ever heard about that deranged cleric were stories about his iconoclasm and bravery — it took a few years after leaving the church to discover that he was also utterly insane about witches and demons, and was an anti-Semitic monster who set the bar high for the Nazis. But he also praised marriage, thought priestly celibacy was unnatural and wrong, so could he have been a bit less sexist than others? Alas, more disappointment.

"If a woman grows weary and at last dies from childbearing, it matters not. Let her die from bearing, she is there to do it."

"Women have narrow shoulders and wide hips, therefore they ought to be domestic; their very physique is a sign from their Creator that he intended them to limit their activity to the home."


So Christianity regards women as of relatively little worth. What is to be done with them, then? And here's where the Bible begins to read like a script for a slasher horror movie (which also, by the way, are as vicious to women as anything in the Bible — so this is also a secular issue). One of the verses that has cost thousands of women their life, and which is still being used to justify murder, especially in Africa, is Exodus 22:18.
"Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live."

Got women usurping the role of priests? Kill them. If they are just standing around innocently, then read Deuteronomy 20 and Numbers 31 for the appropriate response: rape them.

"But the women, and the little ones, and the cattle, and all that is in the city, even all the spoil thereof, shalt thou take unto thyself; and thou shalt eat the spoil of thine enemies, which the LORD thy God hath given thee. "

"Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him. But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves."

And of course, you can be brutal in in your destruction of women. 2 Kings 9 tells the story of a war between two factions, the side of King Ahab and Queen Jezebel, who promoted the worship of Baal, and the faction of the prophet Elijah, who favored the Hebrew god. Here's what happened when King Jehu and Elijah finally defeated the Baal worshippers.

"And when Jehu was come to Jezreel, Jezebel heard of it; and she painted her face, and tired her head, and looked out at a window. And as Jehu entered in at the gate, she said, Had Zimri peace, who slew his master?
And he lifted up his face to the window, and said, Who is on my side? who? And there looked out to him two or three eunuchs. And he said, Throw her down. So they threw her down: and some of her blood was sprinkled on the wall, and on the horses: and he trode her under foot.
And when he was come in, he did eat and drink, and said, Go, see now this cursed woman, and bury her: for she is a king's daughter. And they went to bury her: but they found no more of her than the skull, and the feet, and the palms of her hands. Wherefore they came again, and told him. And he said, This is the word of the LORD, which he spake by his servant Elijah the Tishbite, saying, In the portion of Jezreel shall dogs eat the flesh of Jezebel: And the carcase of Jezebel shall be as dung upon the face of the field in the portion of Jezreel; so that they shall not say, This is Jezebel."

See? Snuff porn!

http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/...s/pharyngula+(Pharyngula)&utm_content=Twitter
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Quote from tomdavis:

You're making this much too complicated. My wife is fairly religious and attends church regularly. If she and the other congregants are treated well at church and she and her/our children are treated well at home, that's what forms her judgement about the church, home and other things in her life. She's interested in the here-and-now as much as she's interested in the hereafter. She's not ignorant of the bible or the history of the church, but she doesn't obsess on it either. Most women are more pragmatic than you give them credit for.
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I don't know if I would call it pragmatic. It's actually either willful ignorance or that they managed to interpret things favorably.

Both old and new testament maintain a subordinate position for women that is difficult to get around. The overused "Deborah" defense is virtually impossible to harmonize with the rest of the bible.

In any event, I get what you are saying overall about it boiling down to treatment. Many women are quite content with how they are viewed by religion and embrace the typical and historical role. There's nothing inherently wrong with the traditional role of women.

But the trade off for women, known as carrot and stick, is that in accepting the traditional role, they will receive the characteristic of being "godly" and "virtuous." And as per the religion, that is something to be esteemed.
 
Quote from tomdavis:

You're making this much too complicated. My wife is fairly religious and attends church regularly. If she and the other congregants are treated well at church and she and her/our children are treated well at home, that's what forms her judgement about the church, home and other things in her life. She's interested in the here-and-now as much as she's interested in the hereafter. She's not ignorant of the bible or the history of the church, but she doesn't obsess on it either. Most women are more pragmatic than you give them credit for.
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i think that is true but you should ask your wife if she found out the company she works for had a written policy that precluded women from some positions and told them they were a source of evil in the world,would she be ok with it?
 
If she was treated badly at church, she would move to another church.


Quote from Free Thinker:

i think that is true but you should ask your wife if she found out the company she works for had a written policy that precluded women from some positions and told them they were a source of evil in the world,would she be ok with it?
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