"Why won't God heal amputees?"

Quote from lkh:

So far in this thread we have shown that God does not answer prayer and that religion is nothing more than superstition. Even so i still get believers who say "even if it isn't true religion is a moral guide that keeps mans evil tenancies in check".
If this were true we should be able to see it in the statistics. Christians should be more moral as a group. It just so happens that there is data available. The US prison system keeps records of religious affiliation of the inmates. Guess which group is the worst?



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D0Qb56uFD2I
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LOL.

I "lol" because a practicing, honestm and earnest believing "Christian" would not be in prison for things expressly shunned by Christianity.

Plus, and not for nothing, most Americans, which this statistic uses as sample set, consider themself Christian. No surprise then that "christians" predominate in the penal system.

In the end, this silly - and I have to say silly - "proof," is only useful for one who would need to grasp at straws in their earnest to discredit Christianity. I surprised that you'd offer such a thing to bolster your arguments against Christianity. It's not the first time you've picked a hum-dinger.

Christianity's major discredits are:

1. Unverifiablity.
2. Unexplained inequity conerning salvation.
3. Unexplained inequitable nature of its God.

Anyway, how could one blame Christianity for murder, rape, theft, etc when those things are expressly forbidden by the pacifist religion that Christianity ultimately is. Perhaps the blame might lie in two things. People who profess to be Christian but are anything but as defined by the religion itself. OR people who have created extrabiblical doctrines to support heinous acts.

Could be a few other things to blame but they probably fall under those two.
 
Quote from archimedes:

Which in turn begs the question: who is truly more compassionate?

The heathens who give with no thought of cosmic gain?

Or the believers who give with visions of sugar plums dancing in their heads?
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Ask the recipients of said philantropy. Don't think they'd be able to tell the difference.

It's a pointless distinction. It's like asking, "which party is more credible for giving a tax cut? Repubs or Demos?" Who cares? end result is that taxes were cut.

Now if you were to look at the long term results or magnanimous actions of heathens versus believers, perhaps there might be some interesting discussion. But it would of course be a subjective evaluation. Happiness, what you would ultimately be measuring, has no objectivity.

So ultimately, who cares? As long as people are receiving a helping hand that need it, it shouldn't matter in the least who is doing it and why.
 
Quote from ddunbar:

...So ultimately, who cares? As long as people are receiving a helping hand that need it, it shouldn't matter in the least who is doing it and why.
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For those on the receiving end, that is true. However, archimedes was commenting on the character of the giver. Does character mean nothing to you? Let's put a finer point on it and see. Suppose that you were in need and, for the sake of argument, were offered a helping hand by two people. Would you choose aid from someone who truly wanted to help you, or from someone who had an essentially ulterior motive that only indirectly had anything to do with you? Choose one. Answer truthfully.
 
Quote from Thunderdog:

For those on the receiving end, that is true. However, archimedes was commenting on the character of the giver. Does character mean nothing to you? Let's put a finer point on it and see. Suppose that you were in need and, for the sake of argument, were offered a helping hand by two people. Would you choose aid from someone who truly wanted to help you, or from someone who had an essentially ulterior motive that only indirectly had anything to do with you? Choose one. Answer truthfully.
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Great question. But it's still pointless because you really can't know the motivation behind any sort of philantropy. Some do it because they believe that it's their religious duty. Some for vanity sake. Some because of guilt. Some because of a belief in a metaphysical notion of reciprocity. Some because they feel they are righting someone elses wrong.

But if I need to eat and there are no strings attached that threaten my life that I am immdeiately aware of, I couldn't care less why it's being offered. As most people in the world in need would say. If it's free, who cares about the character or some personal ulterior motive? In fact, your character appears to improve when you do something altruistic.

For instance, Muslims, while beating their chest about how evil the west is, will gladly accept aid following some natural disaster.

A bum on the street doesn't care why you're dropping coins into his cup. He's not going to draw up a sign that says "Brother can you spare a dime? Christians, look away please."

An elderly woman who has a door being held open for her is not thinking to herself, "oh he's just doing that to get into heaven. Maybe I'll tell him to move on and wait for an altruistic atheist to come along."
 
Quote from ddunbar:


Anyway, how could one blame Christianity for murder, rape, theft, etc when those things are expressly forbidden by the pacifist religion that Christianity ultimately is. Perhaps the blame might lie in two things. People who profess to be Christian but are anything but as defined by the religion itself. OR people who have created extrabiblical doctrines to support heinous acts.

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The most fundamental of the christian sects believe that God preordains people and their actions. If he does it is interesting how many believing christians end up in the prisons for horrendous crimes.

If we look in the book A Purpose Driven Life by Rick Warren, we find this remarkable paragraph in Chapter 2:

Because God made you for a reason, he also decided when you would be born and how long you would live. He planned the days of your life in advance, choosing the exact time of your birth and death. The Bible says, "You saw me before I was born and scheduled each day of my life before I began to breathe. Every day was recorded in your book!" [Psalm 139:16]

Did God plan for these people to commit these crimes? If so are not they just carrying out Gods plan?
 
Quote from lkh:

The most fundamental of the christian sects believe that God preordains people and their actions. If he does it is interesting how many believing christians end up in the prisons for horrendous crimes.

If we look in the book A Purpose Driven Life by Rick Warren, we find this remarkable paragraph in Chapter 2:

Because God made you for a reason, he also decided when you would be born and how long you would live. He planned the days of your life in advance, choosing the exact time of your birth and death. The Bible says, "You saw me before I was born and scheduled each day of my life before I began to breathe. Every day was recorded in your book!" [Psalm 139:16]

Did God plan for these people to commit these crimes? Is are not they just carrying out Gods plan?
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Wow! I can't think of a better reason to shirk all personal responsibility for all my actions, both past and "preordained." In these chains, I am free.
:D
 
Quote from lkh:

The most fundamental of the christian sects believe that God preordains people and their actions. If he does it is interesting how many believing christians end up in the prisons for horrendous crimes.

If we look in the book A Purpose Driven Life by Rick Warren, we find this remarkable paragraph in Chapter 2:

Because God made you for a reason, he also decided when you would be born and how long you would live. He planned the days of your life in advance, choosing the exact time of your birth and death. The Bible says, "You saw me before I was born and scheduled each day of my life before I began to breathe. Every day was recorded in your book!" [Psalm 139:16]

Did God plan for these people to commit these crimes? If so are not they just carrying out Gods plan?
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Interesting. Most Christians today in America are or lean towards Arminianism. That is to say, Free-will. And reject the biblical notion of preordination/predestination. So when they read Warren's book, they won't come away with the thought that they have no free will. They add such notions as God's will and God's premissive will. They'll say such things, and I believe Warren does, "that you're not living in God's will..." when you're doing such things that are not, in their judgement, Christ approved. You know, the old WWJD?

Whereas, a Calvinist would agree with you and have plenty of support for their contention. Case in point: Pharaoh in Exodus. His hand was deliberately moved by God against the Isrealites. Etc Etc. Then there is the book of Job and how God is the one (not Satan - see last chapter verse 11) responsible for all the acts that happen to Job and his family. God would be the one to put it in the hearts of those who murdered Job's kids to do just that and at that time and day.

But we're not arguing any of that. We're arguing... whether or not it is Christianity that is the cause of this from an atheist POV. It would be silly to make that correlation unless Christianity as detailed in the bible expressly stated in no uncertain terms, "Kill, steal, murder, rape, pillage."

In any event, you're declaring them to be Christian simply because they consider themselves to be. And in fact, some of them may indeed be Christian. But my point remains, the statistic is useless. It's a baseless correlation that fails to take into account how closely any inmate followed their respective religion which would be an indication of their devotion rather than their mere affliation. Among other things.

So how to account for Catholic priest near rampant pedophilia or Arbortion doctor killers? Etc. Etc. Simple. They're hypocrites.
 
Quote from Thunderdog:

Please reread the first sentence of my last post in response to your previous post. Everything that followed was just food for thought.
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I know, but Arch will come back eventually so the ground work had to be laid somewhat. I used your post as a segue of sorts.
 
Quote from ddunbar:

Arbortion doctor killers? Etc. Etc. Simple. They're hypocrites. [/B]
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Or bible literalists:
Kill Nonbelievers

They entered into a covenant to seek the Lord, the God of their fathers, with all their heart and soul; and everyone who would not seek the Lord, the God of Israel, was to be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman. (2 Chronicles 15:12-13 NAB)


Kill the Entire Town if One Person Worships Another God

Suppose you hear in one of the towns the LORD your God is giving you that some worthless rabble among you have led their fellow citizens astray by encouraging them to worship foreign gods. In such cases, you must examine the facts carefully. If you find it is true and can prove that such a detestable act has occurred among you, you must attack that town and completely destroy all its inhabitants, as well as all the livestock. Then you must pile all the plunder in the middle of the street and burn it. Put the entire town to the torch as a burnt offering to the LORD your God. That town must remain a ruin forever; it may never be rebuilt. Keep none of the plunder that has been set apart for destruction. Then the LORD will turn from his fierce anger and be merciful to you. He will have compassion on you and make you a great nation, just as he solemnly promised your ancestors. "The LORD your God will be merciful only if you obey him and keep all the commands I am giving you today, doing what is pleasing to him." (Deuteronomy 13:13-19 NLT)


Kill Followers of Other Religions.

1) If your own full brother, or your son or daughter, or your beloved wife, or you intimate friend, entices you secretly to serve other gods, whom you and your fathers have not known, gods of any other nations, near at hand or far away, from one end of the earth to the other: do not yield to him or listen to him, nor look with pity upon him, to spare or shield him, but kill him. Your hand shall be the first raised to slay him; the rest of the people shall join in with you. You shall stone him to death, because he sought to lead you astray from the Lord, your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, that place of slavery. And all Israel, hearing of this, shall fear and never do such evil as this in your midst. (Deuteronomy 13:7-12 NAB)


Kill People for Working on the Sabbath

The LORD then gave these further instructions to Moses: 'Tell the people of Israel to keep my Sabbath day, for the Sabbath is a sign of the covenant between me and you forever. It helps you to remember that I am the LORD, who makes you holy. Yes, keep the Sabbath day, for it is holy. Anyone who desecrates it must die; anyone who works on that day will be cut off from the community. Work six days only, but the seventh day must be a day of total rest. I repeat: Because the LORD considers it a holy day, anyone who works on the Sabbath must be put to death.' (Exodus 31:12-15 NLT)
 
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