Kind of a back-handed argument for religion, innit? Just imagine the bumper stickers.
"Don't knock the Crusades -- Hitler was worse"
"Atheists have hell too"
"Pat Robertson: At least he isn't Mao"
"Why won't God heal amputees?"
- Thread starter lkh
- Start date
Kind of a back-handed argument for religion, innit? Just imagine the bumper stickers.
"Don't knock the Crusades -- Hitler was worse"
"Atheists have hell too"
"Pat Robertson: At least he isn't Mao"
Capuchin monkeys also have an innate sense of justice. That is an observable fact.
p.s. http://www.primates.com/monkeys/fairness.html
So what is Gods best excuse for never answering life or death healing prayers? What part of these verses is hard to understand?There are no qualifiers here.
Matthew 17:20
For truly, I say to you, if you have faith as a grain of mustard seed, you will say to this mountain, 'Move from here to there,' and it will move; and nothing will be impossible to you.
Mark 11:24:
Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours.
John chapter 14 verses 12 through 14
"I tell you the truth, anyone who has faith in me will do what I have been doing. He will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father. And I will do whatever you ask in my name, so that the Son may bring glory to the Father. You may ask me for anything in my name, and I will do it."
Matthew 18:19
Again I say to you, if two of you agree on earth about anything they ask, it will be done for them by my Father in heaven. For where two or three are gathered in my name, there am I in the midst of them.
What is faith? Not being glib, but serious. Jesus came back to Nazareth and could not do might works there because of the people's unbelief [Mark 6:5-6].
Calvin outlined 3 kinds of faith, <a href="http://www.providencepca.com/essays/savingfaith.html">Notitia</a>, <a href="http://faithcommons.org/node/176">assensus</a>, and <a href="http://www.providencepca.com/essays/savingfaith.html">fiducia</a>.
Notitia is basically a knowledge of and understanding what is said or written, without an implied agreement. Thomas calls Jesus, "My Lord and My God." You may not agree with Thomas, but you may understand what he said and why. Assensus is intellectual assent or agreement with the statement. But fiducia is total trust. The best example of fiducia is perhaps a child being carried upstairs to bed in his father's arms: snuggling, content, falling asleep. For the mature, fiducia means you put your life in God's hands regardless of the outcome. Total trust is the most difficult type of faith to walk in on a consistent basis.
In our culture, especially with our scientific, empirical world view, we often confuse head knowledge or mental assent with faith. Unfortunately, yearning, desiring, crying and being totally convinced of the truth of some scripture in your mind is not the same thing as a living faith, which is a relationship between either two people or between people and God. Faith is not a formula, and God is not some kind of cosmic slot machine, where you can say the right words or pray the right prayers and out pops your jackpot. The Gospels show how difficult even rudimentary faith was for Jesus' own disciples in their efforts to duplicate his works. Much of what passes for faith is in fact intellectual presumption rather than faith. If faith were so easy, we'd all be driving Cadillacs by naming and claiming it.
Asking 'in Jesus' Name' is also sometimes treated like a formula. However, the name of Jesus is not some incantation. In Hebrew, the "Name" is shorthand for the person and presence, reputation and will. A better translation is: "If you ask anything, and you are standing in my presence, at one with my will and work, and your heart's desire is for me above all else, then ask whatever you will..." The 'formula' assumes a close, personal relationship, not some 1-2-3 step program to get God to do you will.
I think we also make a mistake when we consider faith to be an individual project or effort. Unlike modern individualistic culture in the West, the Jewish culture was communal. When one person sinned, the consequences of evil fell upon the entire community. In the same way, Jesus speaks about the miracles as signs of the Kingdom of God. A trite phrase to our ears, but what does it mean: a community or landed area where God has dominion, or full control, and the people are voluntarily submitted as a community to the will and ways of God. That would imply a respect for elders, not servile obedience, but honor given where honor is due; mutual concern and a commitment to reconcile differences, among many other things. One possible sign of that kingdom is where people hold all their lands and properties in common and share as any have need [Ac 2:45].
There are a lot of implied or assumed conditions in the text for faith to be effective and work, which are usually overlooked when proof texting as you have done.
Now, I cannot answer why there is not an answer to every prayer or why God is not more evident in our culture, but I suspect that in part there are reasons of community, kingdom, and confusion that play upon us all. But in my experience, the miraculous answers to prayer are not completely absent. A member of our fellowship, for example, about 3 years ago, had multiple X-rays of a large, solid mass on her colon or intestines. The doctors were convinced that it was not a watery cyst and that she needed surgery, which she went to. We prayed and happened to be visiting a church where the pastor did not know of our friend's condition, but had a word of knowledge that there was someone in our fellowship who had a mass in her stomach and God was healing it. I also prayed and laid hands on her in the hospital before the surgery. When the doctors went in, there was nothing there. Now doctors do not normally open themselves up to lawsuits for no good reason and do vacuous surgeries. I certainly cannot prove a one to one correlation of prayer and healing, especially not of my prayers and her healing, but we have seen enough of answered prayers that we continue to do pray. Some healings are miraculous, others ordinary, and some show no signs of healing except through the doctor's hands. Why sometimes and not another is not a question I can answer, but one over which I constantly struggle. If I find out the answer, I'll be sure to let you know
Quote from jefferis:
There are a lot of implied or assumed conditions in the text for faith to be effective and work, which are usually overlooked when proof texting as you have done.
Now, I cannot answer why there is not an answer to every prayer or why God is not more evident in our culture, but I suspect that in part there are reasons of community, kingdom, and confusion that play upon us all. But in my experience, the miraculous answers to prayer are not completely absent. A member of our fellowship, for example, about 3 years ago, had multiple X-rays of a large, solid mass on her colon or intestines. The doctors were convinced that it was not a watery cyst and that she needed surgery, which she went to. We prayed and happened to be visiting a church where the pastor did not know of our friend's condition, but had a word of knowledge that there was someone in our fellowship who had a mass in her stomach and God was healing it. I also prayed and laid hands on her in the hospital before the surgery. When the doctors went in, there was nothing there. Now doctors do not normally open themselves up to lawsuits for no good reason and do vacuous surgeries. I certainly cannot prove a one to one correlation of prayer and healing, especially not of my prayers and her healing, but we have seen enough of answered prayers that we continue to do pray. Some healings are miraculous, others ordinary, and some show no signs of healing except through the doctor's hands. Why sometimes and not another is not a question I can answer, but one over which I constantly struggle. If I find out the answer, I'll be sure to let you know
You have hit on why i went to all of the trouble to post "Why wont God heal amputees. As believers we always have that nagging feeling that maybe something about me is not good enough to allow God to answer our prayers. Christianity is very good at refocusing Gods failure to act back on the person as guilt or doubt.
Christians like mav or jefferies will always turn it around on you and say "You were never a real christian, why should God answer your prayers". I will admit that my doubts could give God reason not to answer my prayer but surely there is one amputee in the world who woud fit the criteria. Yet we find no example of an amputee ever being healed. We find many examples like yours where the doctors were unsure or mistakes could have been made but in the case of amputees where no mistakes are possible there has never been a healing.
Has not lkh shown that "His book" is confusing? Why then would you insist it is still "His book"? Have you ever tried to have a book published only to have it changed by editors? What is so surprising about that?
Meanwhile, I have published volumes through more faithful scribes. Why then beat a dead horse?
Salvation is for the mind and is attained by peace. By this definition, there is not enough non-confusion in the "new testament" to be saved...for the average insane thinker. Being insane, it is not likely that such a one would be able to pick the berries from amongst the bramble. But some have. Those who do connect with the Holy Spirit through those words have used an editing process of their own. Once in communion with the Holy Spirit in their right mind, they have a true Teacher, and no longer need the diluted milk pabulum.
My words are insufficient, even in the purest volumes that I have had published. They are only intended to get you from point A to point B. Once in communion with the Holy Spirit in your mind, you want and need no other Teacher to guide you through the labyrinth back Home. My words are the physical embodiment of messages coming from the Holy Spirit. Physical messages are the only messages an insane mind can hear, given they have long since tuned out the Holy Spirit in their minds, and tuned in the ego's chatter, loud and unclear. The object is to tune in the Teacher, and tune out the cheater.
The salvation of your mind is able to be guided by the Holy Spirit so that you can percieve who you are to the point that you KNOW WHO YOU ARE.
Peace,
Jesus