"Why won't God heal amputees?"

Of course I can have it "both ways."

Theists set up conditions that don't meet the requirements of atheists.

So?

A man blind from birth says: Prove to me that sight exists.

Quote from ddunbar:



You say absolutely nothing different that what I said except my use of logic is consistent. By saying that God is greater than existence (God is the ultimate domain), he can also exist in what we term, existence.

Existence is only known to use by the 5 senses. Yet there are those who believe in a domain (realm) that transcends existence. They improperly think that that is where God is when the bible tells you that he's omnipresent. There is no place you can point to and say, "see here, here is God."



You can't have it both ways. Either God has some root in logic, or none at all. And if none at all, then you cannot comprehend a single aspect of his being. So you stop with what is logical and scriptural in that God is the first Cause. You need not go any further. And if He's the first Cause, then he's the ultimate domains in which all other domains are contained in. That makes all other domains a PART of him and hence, how he can claimn to be omnipresent. Why complicate something unprovable with illogical constucts?



No, they don't. Theist set up conditions which are often impossible and illogical. The only condition atheists request is for theists to support their claims. A very erudite theist will be able to keep the logic "tight" leaving the atheist with only one response. "Prove God exists." [/B]
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Not existence that is knowable to limited senses and limited intellect...

Unless you are going to tell us that you have an intellect and senses that are capable of knowing the unlimited...

Quote from stu:

"God is "

presupposes existence.
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Quote from vhehn:

god lies when he says he can not lie because he admits he will lie if he wants to.(if you believe the bible is gods word)

2 Thessalonians 2:11
11For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie
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If only you knew scripture and what and who this is actually refering to...

In partial context:

2Th 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
2Th 2:9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
2Th 2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
2Th 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
2Th 2:12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

God sends them the AntiChrist who speaks lies and who they worship. If you look in revelations, you will see this born out. It is not God who is lying, but the Antichrist who is lying. He is the "strong delusion." These people could do not other than to follow the antichrist. It is their destiny.

In fact, you will fins another example similiar to this in the OT where God makes/allows priests speak lies. The priests were already in unrighteousness before this is done. This is done in a similiar vein to what's going on in 2nd thess to reveal the true character of the people who had no "pleasure in righteousness."

But in both cases, God has not lied. First, the truth is given from him. Then it's confirmed. Then God foretells that he's going to send or allow someone to speak against the truth. Those that are His, will know better. Those that are not, already hate the truth of God, cannot discern between the truth, and therefore readily accept what is contrary to what God has already said was the truth.

Note this prophecy as stated by Jesus conerning the same time period in 2nd thess:

Mat 24:23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
Mat 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.


Keyphrase: if it were possible.

The elect cannot be deceived. They are God's. They know his truth.

Those who are not elect of God, especially in that day which 2nd thess refers to in which even the Angels of God preach the truth before the revealing of the AntiChrist at the abomination of desolation, reject the truth as a lie and accept a lie as the truth.

So in the end, what lie did God make after having told them through various agents, the truth? The Strong Delusion is that the antichrist is allowed by and empowered by God to appear as the archtype of Jesus. It is plain to those who are his elect that this is not Jesus because they already know the truth and can see through the obvious facade. Those who hated the truth and rejected it have no basis in which to discern the antichrist's false nature.
 
Quote from ddunbar:

If only you knew scripture and what and who this is actually refering to...

In partial context:

2Th 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
2Th 2:9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
2Th 2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
2Th 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
2Th 2:12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

God sends them the AntiChrist who speaks lies and who they worship. If you look in revelations, you will see this born out. It is not God who is lying, but the Antichrist who is lying. He is the "strong delusion." These people could do not other than to follow the antichrist. It is their destiny.

In fact, you will fins another example similiar to this in the OT where God makes/allows priests speak lies. The priests were already in unrighteousness before this is done. This is done in a similiar vein to what's going on in 2nd thess to reveal the true character of the people who had no "pleasure in righteousness."

But in both cases, God has not lied. First, the truth is given from him. Then it's confirmed. Then God foretells that he's going to send or allow someone to speak against the truth. Those that are His, will know better. Those that are not, already hate the truth of God, cannot discern between the truth, and therefore readily accept what is contrary to what God has already said was the truth.

Note this prophecy as stated by Jesus conerning the same time period in 2nd thess:

Mat 24:23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
Mat 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.


Keyphrase: if it were possible.

The elect cannot be deceived. They are God's. They know his truth.

Those who are not elect of God, especially in that day which 2nd thess refers to in which even the Angels of God preach the truth before the revealing of the AntiChrist at the abomination of desolation, reject the truth as a lie and accept a lie as the truth.

So in the end, what lie did God make after having told them through various agents, the truth? The Strong Delusion is that the antichrist is allowed by and empowered by God to appear as the archtype of Jesus. It is plain to those who are his elect that this is not Jesus because they already know the truth and can see through the obvious facade. Those who hated the truth and rejected it have no basis in which to discern the antichrist's false nature.
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your convoluted explanation made my point perfectly. god will use deception or send agents to decieve if it suites his purpose.
isn't it interesting that those who think they are gods chosen think that only they can understand gods true purpose.
when you use the ramblings of primitive me as your basis to understand god it is not supprising that religion is reguarded as superstition today.
 
Quote from Aapex:

Again your trying to fit God into your tiny little box. God is beyond human wisdom or understanding. How can you pretend to know the mind of God? Where were you 10,000 years ago?

What good evidence do you have to support your claim that God does not exist? I have yet to see an Atheist support this claim.
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It's one of those days where peeps aren't really reading but assuming things about a poster.

No where did I say God doesn't exist. I'm simply saying that God is beyond what we call existence.

Think of a domain as a circle. God is this circle. Draw this on a piece of paper. This really doesn't do the conversation justice because a circle would represent a finite domain which God is not. God is an infinite domain.

Now, in this circle is another circle called existence. Existence may or may not be finite. But existence as we know, along with the concept of a first cause God, has to be.

If you say that God is in existence, you are reversing this picture making the domain called existence greater than God.

But with my diagram, you can easily claim two things:

1. God is greater than existence.
2. God can manifest in existence since existence is within God.

However, to really do this justice, you'll have to imagine an infinite "canvas" upon which you draw a circle as loarge as you can and call it existence. Before you drew this circle and called it existence, the inifite canvas was already there.

Find scripture that can contradict that.
 
Quote from vhehn:

your convoluted explanation made my point perfectly. god will use deception or send agents to decieve if if suites his purpose.
isn't it interesting that those who think they are gods chosen think that only they can understand gods true purpose.
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Oh that's right. I forget, it's Vhehn! How's things? Been a while. I remember last time we chatted you couldn't understand the difference between what is scriptural/unbiblical and what is not. Remember that?

You were saying that tithing isn't scriptural and unbiblical even though it's contained in scripture.

When I repeatedly pointed that out to you, you responded that you couldn't be bothered with "semantics."
 
Quote from ddunbar:

Oh that's right. I forget, it's Vhehn! How's things? Been a while. I remember last time we chatted you couldn't understand the difference between what is scriptural/unbiblical and what is not. Remember that?

You were saying that tithing isn't scriptural and unbiblical even though it's contained in scripture.

When I repeatedly pointed that out to you, you responded that you couldn't be bothered with "semantics."
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i won that battle. the tithing of money is not biblical.
 
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