"Why won't God heal amputees?"

Proof #49 - Look at who speaks for God

In Christian mythology, God is supposed to the the all-powerful, all-knowing creator of the universe. God is supposed to have incarnated himself as Jesus and he is supposed to have written the Bible. And yet today God is completely and absolutely silent. Therefore, the only thing we hear from God comes from people who are speaking on his behalf.

If you would like to understand how imaginary God is, all that you have to do is listen to God's spokespeople, because in many cases these people are lunatics. If there actually were a God, and if he actually had anything to do with love, he would silence these people because they are an absolute embarrassment.

Here are several video examples that demonstrate the problem. Thousands of examples like this are available:

Thank God for dead soldiers http://youtube.com/watch?v=Pi77koTk8mc
Holy spirit enema http://youtube.com/watch?v=k0FMZiEmM14
Jimmy Swaggart Would Kill a Homosexual http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qcV61hhK0sc
Pat Roberston 1 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_3x-20bpMXs
Pat Robertson 2 http://www.youtube.com/index?&sessi...lIHZpb2xhdGlvbi5xB2FVCG1lc3NhZ2VzcQhdcQl1Lg==
Pouring the water http://youtube.com/watch?v=KwtXNQWnkKM
Hot, cold, lukewarm http://youtube.com/watch?v=024b-UM_B4s
Pitch his tents http://youtube.com/watch?v=_Vs5nZYq1hY
If God were real, he would speak for himself. The fact that God does not speak, and that he allows any lunatic who comes along to speak "in his name," shows us that God is quite imaginary.
 
Quote from lkh:


If God were real, he would speak for himself.
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Are you speaking for yourself, or for God?

Quote from lkh:

The fact that God does not speak, and that he allows any lunatic who comes along to speak "in his name," shows us that God is quite imaginary.
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God does not speak words. He does not teach anything. Teaching is done through a Translator/Interpreter that He gave each of you when you split your mind. You now have a split mind. On one side is a lunatic ego and is insane. In the other side is the Holy Spirit, the Voice for God for you, translating and interpreting what is in front of you. He does not speak until you deliberately listen. He does not interrupt or talk over the screaming lunatics.

When you allow such lunacy to speak for God for you, what are you doing but listening to your own ego and projecting this upon lunatics outside of yourself? There is nothing "out there" but what is "in here".

Know that your ego is intent upon murdering the very idea of God, that it may live forever, even if it must kill your body to prove it right. Parading itself in the name of God, it makes a mockery of all that is love. What better way to substitute illusion for reality, and kill what it percieves as its enemy?

The ego made this entire "universe" and your body with it. Thus, never underestimate it's desire to self-decieve you. This entire universe is a "hideout" where you think God cannot find you. Who is hiding from Whom, then? It is no more real than the ego that imagined it. Thus, God is not mocked, for the entirely real cannot be mocked by the utterly imaginary. You are but little children under blankets, telling each other stories about how baby Christians are born.

Would you rather be right, or happy?

Peace,

Jesus
 
Quote from stu:

I would respectfully suggest to you Maverick1, I think it's your logic which renders the discussion un-debatable. To my mind your basis of debate artificially forces conclusion to a standstill.

I think it fair to say people would generally accept the idea that if someone were once married, then separated, they were in fact previously once married. To say they were never married, would generally be considered illogical and probably an effrontery.

By saying their separation retrospectively turns their marriage into never married, is not really supporting logical discourse. That way, won't you end up just re-convincing yourself of the implausable, or chattering to the illogically converted?

If that is the best logic christianity can come up with , - an idea that readily condemns its previous believers , leaving current ones with promises of a hasty disownment tantamount to blackmail - , personally I think that probably does christianity more harm than good.
It's hardly a commendable prescription for friendly fellowship.

So keep posting :)
j/k
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Stu,

Something that apparently whizzes right by many of the posters on this thread, including yourself, is that when you discuss or debate, you're supposed to respond to the points raised. Archimedes did not respond to my argument, which is fine by me. You did not either. And that's fine as well. But don't blame the lack of debate on my logic. I am using standard and basic apologetics to argue a point and no one has responded to it.

Now if you were to write and say, hey I don't believe in John 3:5 or John 3:18, that would be an example of a debate in progress. You are responding to the points I raise. And I would tell you, you are free to be a non believer and not pay attention to what Christ says. God grants you that freedom. And that would be the end of the discussion, because we agree to disagree.

Marriage as an analogy fails, because the main standard by which an individual can judge his position vis a vis God, is that of belief/unbelief in Christ. Not whether he loves God or not. Gandhi loved God in all likelihood, but that did not make him a born again christian. Marriage is thus a false analogy. You may not like this, but don't tell me that there is a problem with my logic/argument, because there is none. You just don't like it. The gospel of John says you that you are condemned if you do not believe. It also tells you that Christ came to save and not to condemn. That is the biblical truth, whether you like it or not. Many feel that the gospel isn't 'comfy' enough for them, as if comfort was the yardstick to measure truth. So these many go on to build their own little 'designer' religions or belief systems, just so they can be comfortable... a little bit of this, a little bit of that, et voila! they have their own customized belief system.

Note that I argue from christian apologetics. I do so because Archimedes framed his argument in such a way to implicate christian theology. I have used two simple verses from the gospel of John to make my point clear to him and lkh, namely that they were never born again believers but that if they choose to believe today, that God would welcome them. He chose not to debate me, only to say that I'm wrong and he's right. That's his right. But don't tell me he has debated me. He chose not to.

I understand that you as well as lkh choose to disagree with the foundation of my argument, namely, christian apologetics based on biblical text. That's fine. That's actually the whole point of lkh. His goal is to 'disprove' the Bible. What he doesn't realize is that every single point he has raised has been addressed by christian apologists a long time ago. lkh writes in such volume that no one here really has time to respond on this thread blow by blow. But trust me, anyone who can pick up a text by Norman Geisler or any other apologist would find the response to the questions raised by lkh. Jefferis has very finely pointed out some of the gaping flaws in lkh's reasoning, and for the time that he has had to post, has done a great job.

But you see, lkh wants a god that he can fully explain, one that he can define completely and accurately, in other words, he wants a god that he can neatly fit in his little box. Only then would lkh be satisfied, but would he? The truth is that lkh has made a god of his own intellect, which he sees as infallible and which I see as deeply flawed and fallible. It is a sad sight when man elevates himself to such heights that he can't even see his own fallibility and limitations.
 
Quote from lkh:

I have always thought that the most dangerous thing about religion is what it does to the mind of the believer. Religion is the ultimate us against them mentality and explains why so much killing has been done in the name of gods.
Someone looks at the evidence and comes to a different conclusion than you so you attack them as inferior to you.
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Lkh,

Show me where I have attacked anyone as inferior to myself in this thread. I haven't, but again, you throw off ad hominem attacks when you can't say anything else.

I state my belief. If you don't like it or agree, that is your prerogative as a human being. You can say so freely. But when I don't agree with what you post, I have a right to say so too. My belief is that you were never a born again christian but have a chance, as long as you live, to come to God and repent of your sin, just likecountless have done across the globe. You are not 'inferior' as an unbeliever. Instead you have great value in God's eyes, and that's why He wants you to come to know Him deeply so that you may have life and have it abundantly. Every human being is precious in God's eyes, that is why John 3:16 says for God so loved the world, that he gave his only son. So loved the world. There is no superior nor inferior on earth. Just sinners who need God's grace in their lives.

You point to the killing that is done in the name of god. You are right, but is the problem God, or is the problem the sin of man, who refuses to do what God wants him to do. Jesus said, the two greatest commandments are: Love God with all your mind, heart and soul and love you neighbor as you love yourself. If mankind had truly followed these two simple but awesome commandments, do you think we would have wars and killings? No we would not. The fault lies not in the doctrine my friend, it lies in our hearts.

Why don't you point to the good that is achieved by religion in the world? Take worldvision for example, a christian organization which sponsors children in Africa and other parts of the world, so that they may have food, shelter and education? Why don't you mention the millions of dollars that christians give towards fighting poverty and sickness around the world? I'm not surprised that you don't, you are extremely hardened of heart.
 
Quote from lkh:

Proof #49 - Look at who speaks for God

In Christian mythology, God is supposed to the the all-powerful, all-knowing creator of the universe. God is supposed to have incarnated himself as Jesus and he is supposed to have written the Bible. And yet today God is completely and absolutely silent. Therefore, the only thing we hear from God comes from people who are speaking on his behalf.

If you would like to understand how imaginary God is, all that you have to do is listen to God's spokespeople, because in many cases these people are lunatics. If there actually were a God, and if he actually had anything to do with love, he would silence these people because they are an absolute embarrassment.

Here are several video examples that demonstrate the problem. Thousands of examples like this are available:

Thank God for dead soldiers http://youtube.com/watch?v=Pi77koTk8mc
Holy spirit enema http://youtube.com/watch?v=k0FMZiEmM14
Jimmy Swaggart Would Kill a Homosexual http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qcV61hhK0sc
Pat Roberston 1 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_3x-20bpMXs
Pat Robertson 2 http://www.youtube.com/index?&sessi...lIHZpb2xhdGlvbi5xB2FVCG1lc3NhZ2VzcQhdcQl1Lg==
Pouring the water http://youtube.com/watch?v=KwtXNQWnkKM
Hot, cold, lukewarm http://youtube.com/watch?v=024b-UM_B4s
Pitch his tents http://youtube.com/watch?v=_Vs5nZYq1hY
If God were real, he would speak for himself. The fact that God does not speak, and that he allows any lunatic who comes along to speak "in his name," shows us that God is quite imaginary.
More...

Your logic is deeply flawed. You use the either or fallacy and expect everyone to have an aha moment. Could it be that God does not speak directly to humans today because they are so hard of heart that even if He were to appear to them in person they still would not believe? Could it be that God desires faith in him instead of a show me now or be gone attitude? How about that for a second or third option? Is that possible lkh? Oh, I forgot, it's not possible because lkh does not like that option or think its possible, so end of argument right?

The fact that you provide those links shows how poor your reasoning is. Again, do those people who claim to be christians show that there is a problem with christian doctrine, or are they examples of christians who have gone astray? Oh I forgot, in lkh's world the only christians he will point to are the ones that have failed to represent Christ in the way He would want to be.
 
Quote from Maverick1:

Lkh,


Why don't you point to the good that is achieved by religion in the world? Take worldvision for example, a christian organization which sponsors children in Africa and other parts of the world, so that they may have food, shelter and education? Why don't you mention the millions of dollars that christians give towards fighting poverty and sickness around the world? I'm not surprised that you don't, you are extremely hardened of heart.
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I could do that but i have done extensive research on the subject and religion fails there too. Most of the christian churches are terrible in the charity department. The ones i have studied go something like this: 90% of the money recieved goes for salaries for preachers and to pay for and maintain fancy new buildings. Very little goes for direct charity to the poor. If a secular charity had that high of overhead expenses they would be shut down as a fraud.
 
One of my favorite resssources on the net:

http://www.evilbible.com/

An extract:

Top Ten Signs You're a Fundamentalist Christian




10 - You vigorously deny the existence of thousands of gods claimed by other religions, but feel outraged when someone denies the existence of yours.

9 - You feel insulted and "dehumanized" when scientists say that people evolved from other life forms, but you have no problem with the Biblical claim that we were created from dirt.

8 - You laugh at polytheists, but you have no problem believing in a Triune God.

7 - Your face turns purple when you hear of the "atrocities" attributed to Allah, but you don't even flinch when hearing about how God/Jehovah slaughtered all the babies of Egypt in "Exodus" and ordered the elimination of entire ethnic groups in "Joshua" including women, children, and trees!

6 - You laugh at Hindu beliefs that deify humans, and Greek claims about gods sleeping with women, but you have no problem believing that the Holy Spirit impregnated Mary, who then gave birth to a man-god who got killed, came back to life and then ascended into the sky.

5 - You are willing to spend your life looking for little loopholes in the scientifically established age of Earth (few billion years), but you find nothing wrong with believing dates recorded by Bronze Age tribesmen sitting in their tents and guessing that Earth is a few generations old.

4 - You believe that the entire population of this planet with the exception of those who share your beliefs -- though excluding those in all rival sects - will spend Eternity in an infinite Hell of Suffering. And yet consider your religion the most "tolerant" and "loving."


3 - While modern science, history, geology, biology, and physics have failed to convince you otherwise, some idiot rolling around on the floor speaking in "tongues" may be all the evidence you need to "prove" Christianity.

2 - You define 0.01% as a "high success rate" when it comes to answered prayers. You consider that to be evidence that prayer works. And you think that the remaining 99.99% FAILURE was simply the will of God.

1 - You actually know a lot less than many atheists and agnostics do about the Bible, Christianity, and church history - but still call yourself a Christian.


And this is :

What Would Jesus Do?



Advocate child abuse and murder amongst many other cruelties.

Christians are always claiming, “he’s the lamb”, “our savior”, “the king of peace”, “the embodiment of love”, amongst the many other names they associate with a loving, merciful nature. Jesus a nice guy? Not in my book. Nor in any other person’s who is capable of compassion and rationality. Let’s examine who the hell the Jesus character really is. These verses will show not only is Jesus’ “loving” nature a joke but so are the Christians who worship him. Jesus’ real mission to come to earth:

Jesus says that he has come to destroy families by making family members hate each other. He has “come not to send peace, but a sword.” Matthew 10:34

Jesus says, “Don’t imagine that I came to bring peace on earth! No, rather a sword lf you love your father, mother, sister, brother, more than me, you are not worthy of being mine. “The real beauty of this verse is that Jesus demands people truly love him more then they love their own family. I ask you how can we love someone that we can not see or interact with? Love is an emotion pertaining to physical existence not to faithful ideologies, yet God threatens you with Death just because your love for your mother maybe stronger than your love for him. Matthew 10:34

Families will be torn apart because of Jesus. “Brother shall deliver up the brother to death, and the father the child: and the children shall rise up against their parents, and cause them to be put to death." Matthew 10:21

Jesus strongly approves of the law and the prophets. He hasn’t the slightest objection to the cruelties of the Old Testament. Matthew 5:17



Jesus advocates murder and death:

Jesus condemns entire cities to dreadful deaths and to the eternal torment of hell because they didn’t care for his preaching. Matthew 11:20

Jesus, whose clothes are dipped in blood, has a sharp sword sticking out of his mouth. Thus attired, he treads the winepress of the wrath of God. (The winepress is the actual press that humans shall be put into so that we may be ground up.) Revelations 19:13-15

The beast and the false prophet are cast alive into a lake of fire. The rest of us the unchosen will be killed with the sword of Jesus. “An all the fowls were filled with their flesh.” Revelations 19:20-21



Jesus says he is the only way to salvation yet he purposely disillusions us so that we will go to hell:

Jesus explains that the reason he speaks in parables is so that no one will understand him, “lest . . . they . . . should understand . . . and should be converted, and I should heal them.” Matthew 13:10-15

Jesus explains why he speaks in parables to confuse people so they will go to hell. Mark 4:11-12



Jesus advocates child abuse:

Jesus is criticized by the Pharisees for not washing his hands before eating. He defends himself by attacking them for not killing disobedient children according to the commandment: “He that curseth father or mother, let him die the death.” Matthew 15:4-7

Abandon your wife and children for Jesus and he’ll give your a big reward. Jesus asks that his followers abandon their children to follow him. To leave your child is abuse, it’s called neglect, pure and simple. Matthew 19:29

Jesus criticizes the Jews for not killing their disobedient children according to Old Testament law. Mark 7:9



A few other things about Jesus:

Jesus says that those who have been less fortunate in this life will have it even worse in the life to come. Mark 4:25

Jesus sends the devils into 2000 pigs, causing them to jump off a cliff and be drowned in the sea. Clearly Jesus could have simply sent the devils out, yet he chose instead to place them into pigs and kill them. This is called animal abuse. Mark 5:12-13

Jesus kills a fig tree for not bearing figs, even though it was out of season. Jesus must not be as smart as Christians would have us believe, for he was retarded enough to do something this silly. You’d think the son of god (god incarnate) would know that trees don’t bear fruit in dry season. Mark 11:13

Luke 12:47 Jesus okays beating slaves.
 
Quote from Maverick1:

Could it be that God does not speak directly to humans today because they are so hard of heart that even if He were to appear to them in person they still would not believe? Could it be that God desires faith in him instead of a show me now or be gone attitude?
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Does Satan do the same ? That is do you have to believe Satan, trust him,have faith in him, believe his word or seek him, to hear him, or does Satan make himself known without imposing such conditions ?
 
Quote from lkh:

I could do that but i have done extensive research on the subject and religion fails there too. Most of the christian churches are terrible in the charity department. The ones i have studied go something like this: 90% of the money recieved goes for salaries for preachers and to pay for and maintain fancy new buildings. Very little goes for direct charity to the poor. If a secular charity had that high of overhead expenses they would be shut down as a fraud.
More...

Extensive research huh? Lol.

http://www.worldvision.org/about_us.nsf/child/why_donate?Open&lid=why_donate&lpos=body

But wait, I guess you will come back and say that you have extensively researched the AUDITED financial statements at worldvision (which show that 87% of revenue goes towards programs) and state that they are lying too.

You are sorely lacking in intellectual honesty lkh, give it up.

I am done with this thread, and will no longer post because I have had enough time to say what I had to say and there is no benefit in continuing. And I'm tired of the ad hominem attacks as well and of the general deep lack of sound reasoning and intellectual honesty. Not to mention that this thread has turned into a hate christianity and christians fest, (see ParisJom above), openly slandering the name of Christ. If the roles were reversed and it was Muhammad and Allah that I chose to villify by pointing to koranic verses, surely ParisJom would declare Jihad on me and ET, right and demand that the blasphemy be removed or else...But no, its fine to blaspheme Christ and christians, god forbid you would do the same to others of different beliefs, you'd probably be killed or taken to court.


Go on now lkh, write up another 200 pages and wow us all.
 
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