I am talking about trading positions at banks, the real trading jobs be it arb, market making, pro desk or whatever. The money divided by the time is nothing at all similar to a prop firm......I knwo guys that have made 500k bonuses their 3rd year there. Not too shabby. ANd some of them have moved on to run their own desk at some firms. Could you ever do that at a prop shop? Nope.
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why prop firms pay people to trade?
- Thread starter 0008
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Quote from SilverBullet:
I am talking about trading positions at banks, the real trading jobs be it arb, market making, pro desk or whatever. The money divided by the time is nothing at all similar to a prop firm......I knwo guys that have made 500k bonuses their 3rd year there. Not too shabby. ANd some of them have moved on to run their own desk at some firms. Could you ever do that at a prop shop? Nope.
If you get in with the right group of traders you can match those numbers.... Here I mean private operations that run their own or pooled money. It isn't only the institutional firms that make this type of money. The folks that I know that work institutional jobs are working 80+ - and in some cases 100+ hours per week. The people that I know that make that type of money in small trading groups are working 45 - 50 hours per week. That is the institutional people are putting in about twice the number of hours for similar dollars .... not a good deal.
Quote from CalTrader:
If you get in with the right group of traders you can match those numbers.... Here I mean private operations that run their own or pooled money. It isn't only the institutional firms that make this type of money. The folks that I know that work institutional jobs are working 80+ - and in some cases 100+ hours per week. The people that I know that make that type of money in small trading groups are working 45 - 50 hours per week. That is the institutional people are putting in about twice the number of hours for similar dollars .... not a good deal.
silverbullet & caltrader,
both of you are partly right.
Cal, most traders do NOT work 80-100hrs/wk. Those hours are reserved for investment bankers who work on deals like M&A, IPOs,etc. Traders work pretty reasonable hours 60+ at most. The people who support them, however, work longer hours though. haha. But overall s&t(sales&trading) have lower work hours than ib(investment banking).
Silver,
Yes, you can get that kind of pay outside of institutional world. But I think those types of groups require a little more experience than your typical prop shop.
good luck trading to all!
Oh yeah about the experience, for sure. I am talking about how hard it is to get these jobs....MBA plus CFA, or PHDs, or CAs with tradin expereince, you know what I mean......very educated, intelligent and qualified people.
Quote from trader99:
silverbullet & caltrader,
both of you are partly right.
Cal, most traders do NOT work 80-100hrs/wk. Those hours are reserved for investment bankers who work on deals like M&A, IPOs,etc. Traders work pretty reasonable hours 60+ at most.
The institutional people I know are being asked to do more with less to keep their positions - at this level you are already successful. With their support staff being cut they are getting asked to do more. .... And yes it is the support staff that more typically works those long hours. I had my turn at that and graduated from it years ago .....
Yeah exactly, so they let a lot of traders go in the last couple years, plus very few hires, plus they are expected to do more. It was bond trading that saved many of the market makers earnings the past couple of quarters as many of you know...but until conditions turn, I wouldnt expect a lot of hiring here.
What year are you guys pretending it is?
1998-1999? NOBODY and I repeat NOBODY is making $500K anymore. The senior guys left standing make nowhere near that kind of wood and are praying for $250K year end bonuses on top of a $100 Base. These are guys that made high six figures. Many traders at bulge bracket firms not Prop firms are lucky to have a seat.
Institutional desks are doing straight executions without capital now for .03 a share. No more position trading is going on. Institutions either want naturals or they can get an order filled for next to nothing. No more 1/8s or even teenies being made on CSCO or INTC. Happy Days are long gone. until Banking and IPOs come back. I am happy trading my E minis until greener pastures come back.
1998-1999? NOBODY and I repeat NOBODY is making $500K anymore. The senior guys left standing make nowhere near that kind of wood and are praying for $250K year end bonuses on top of a $100 Base. These are guys that made high six figures. Many traders at bulge bracket firms not Prop firms are lucky to have a seat.
Institutional desks are doing straight executions without capital now for .03 a share. No more position trading is going on. Institutions either want naturals or they can get an order filled for next to nothing. No more 1/8s or even teenies being made on CSCO or INTC. Happy Days are long gone. until Banking and IPOs come back. I am happy trading my E minis until greener pastures come back.
Lots of guyx are cleaning up in bond trading, I know a lot that have moved to fx derivatives too
Interesting thread here.
The best advice I have gotten is to always understand how a business makes money before you decide to be involved.
Yes, there are "institutional" firms that seek to hire smart people, train them thoroughly, and make money off their profits over the long haul. So they invest a lot in each trader, but if you make money, they get it back over time.
Most of the prop shops as they are described here are modified day trading offices that make money off your commissions, so they give very high payouts on profits, especially if you move shares.
So if you still make money consistently, keep to the good prop shops that can offer you competitive rates. If you are new/stuck/broke and can get on with a reputable trading firm that will pay you some sort of living salary, take that route.
It would seem that FNYS claims to be one of those, and if anyone has first hand experience with them I think everyone would be interested in hearing about it.
The best advice I have gotten is to always understand how a business makes money before you decide to be involved.
Yes, there are "institutional" firms that seek to hire smart people, train them thoroughly, and make money off their profits over the long haul. So they invest a lot in each trader, but if you make money, they get it back over time.
Most of the prop shops as they are described here are modified day trading offices that make money off your commissions, so they give very high payouts on profits, especially if you move shares.
So if you still make money consistently, keep to the good prop shops that can offer you competitive rates. If you are new/stuck/broke and can get on with a reputable trading firm that will pay you some sort of living salary, take that route.
It would seem that FNYS claims to be one of those, and if anyone has first hand experience with them I think everyone would be interested in hearing about it.