Why Is The Obvious Not So Obvious?

poland · Jul 15, 2012

Quote from macattack:

You & Redneck say not to read trading books..............to stop listening to other people...............to stop searching for trading tips..................and instead to think for yourself & actually use your brain.

But then you post charts here that require passwords & talk about actual trades & you obviously post here so people will read your posts.

So how does that differ from somebody reading a trading book? You & Redneck can't be the only 2 traders in the world that don't write rubbish.

Do you think the people that read this thread are still stuck in the same loop searching & searching for trading advice from the brain of somebody else?
That would seem to be the conclusion based on all that you have written.

So I see the value in your past posts about thinking & Montaigne & Boyd & other similar thoughts, but now that you're going into actual charts & trading tips how does that differ from a trading book............many of which can be found for free on the internet or at the library?

Anyway..........can I have a password?

macattack,

i agree with what you had mentioned above.
I did spent sometime searching what is the obvious they are talking about....but I give it up because it makes no sense to find out how other people trade...I better spend the time to figure out how I take $$ out of the market....

Frankly, till now I have no clue about all the charts that TO has posted...but I must thank him for pointing out a direction for me...

I am remember something mentioned by NoDoji...everyone was saying shit stuff about Al Brooks' book...but NoDoji said, she doesn't care if the author is a really trading or not......more important is the information offer help her in one way or another.

"No matter if it is a white cat or a black cat; as long as it can catch mice, it is a good cat. .... Mao Zedong (1893 â 1976)

There are many thing TO and RN said that I do not understand...especially those rhymes(I hate those)...

But never forget rule no.1 .....this is applicable not just to trading..even in everyday life.

Lastly, in my youth I used to work in the turf club...some old man told me the same thing..it is a mug's game.....

Argent · Jul 15, 2012

Quote from jack hershey:

historical note:

Mark Brown, a vender of little note, picked up on a prior joke I made. The joke took on some realtiy and became a CW oriented myth in ET and elswhere.

So today it is a guilibility test for ET members and moderators.

Reminder for Monday's open (in terms of Why the obvoius is not so obvious, the thread topic):

A long completed (bar71) late on Friday. An immediate reversal (long exit/short entry) took us into a short. On bar 78 the RTH margin ended. Most skilled traded would then get a margin call. To preclude this, during the appropriate best advantage (Look at the exisiting upper Wall on the DOM) most traders would enter a market order 1 tick below the Wall and exit for the day. See 2 ticks below the top of bar 77.

the trend channel was set by bars 75 (point 1) and bar 81 (bar 81). The liany of the primary OOE is P1 on bar 72 and 73; T1 on bar 74; and completion of the first trend move on bar 75. (P1 to Ti (at BO of RTL) to pt2. fro geometric reasons on price the top of bar 75 becomes pt1 and the bottom of bar 75 becomes pt2.)

Volume values for the trends peaks and troughs are set serially as the trend progresses. P1 is replaced on bar 77 and and P2 is replaced on bar 78, each for different not obvious reasons to CW type potential traders.

bar 81 a lateral BO gave us pt3 of the parallelogram. This is a very important signal for ending the second move of price in the trading trend (short in sentiment).

after the sceond move is signalled to have ended, then the LAST move begins. The trading trend segment and the thrid move end simultaneously. So the serious trader turns to monitoring the leading signals of the subtrend of the trading trend. there are 12 of these. They peel off just as a squadron of fighter jets would have in the past old fashion warfare of bygone days. Now we use unmanned droned piloted by folks in Tucson remotely fighting in the EAST. No PTSD results.

So on the first 12 seconds of Monday's open the entry is short.
Give a look at the OOE of the subfractal to see either its shortcut or its normal flight path. If you like logging ahead of time (5 to 15 minutes) you can mark both rows on the log that are potential trading bars.

Depending on your skill level you can do the trade when either bar is "certain" as shown by the logic sheet used to code the ATS. Use a coloered ball point ben to follow the unilateral pathways on the logic sheets. If the earliest short cut is "killed", then you are certain two bars ahead when the carve the turn on the second path. Knowing that you know is very calming.

Do not spent time on targets nor setting stops. Both of these things are detrimental to differentiating you mind fully.

All the above in trading parlance is referred to as a CALL. I usually do CALLS two or three bars ahead of the current bar. What does this style of trading achieve? In ET it achieves hits and criticisms from others.

for the astute trader it "steers and focuses" the traders mind to the correct places to measure and to use the correct measures.

the place have names in the OOE. the OOE of the test procedure tell you the step by step means to know that you know.

In this thread anyone is free to watch me call the market. anyone is free to critique me. anyone is free to say all the negative descriptors she can think up. anyone with questions may be moderated off this thread as just happened when a superior question was asked. It was repeated alsewhere and answered elsewhere.

The password is TFF.

All ex post fructo, Jack.

Argent · Jul 15, 2012

Quote from jack hershey:

this bare unembellished chart was displayed in this thread to show (visually) the starting point of what a person would see looking over my shoulder to see two of my screens.

by turning to the left, he would see my trading platform and many of the leading indicators. This is the screen that drew the comment: "Wow that's 13,000 dollars in one account in 9 minutes"

by looking at the three spaces where I have 5 three ring binders open he would see the prior day's OED chart, the cheat sheet binder open to the page of the market, A binder filled with tested annotated examples of every possible End Event; a Binder of textual lead ins to the examples (thickest); and a reversechron file of my contemproary writtne note and illustrations. All five binders have a cross referencing system of deates and bars and pagesnumbers. each binder is numbered uniquely.

I use snagit for snapshots that go to a remote printer. I use dragon 9 for texting orally during RTH.

As to your Q; I do not put volume annotations on price bars or vice versa. You may not see the paralleling of added deggrees of freedom on each the volume and price on the empty chart. It is not very empty before I begin the "annotate" both price and volume. There are years and years of annotated charts.

My log is on a writing shelf directly in from of me; below the shelf are three keyboards. My mice are on the shelf above each filled page is placed above the prior EOD binder chart on top of the verso of that page.

Before a person annotates he has to be able to se the market and know he know what is important to look at.

My DOM and T&S are automatically and fully annotated by my IB who provides them. (See Larry Harris vocabulary)

Jack, trading is like pussy tickling. You are not the market. And you don't have a pussy. You go with the flow, and you definitely do not say, "Hold on, hon. I have to annotate." Note taking, annotation, hysterical records, are all hallmarks of a weak trader who doesn't trust himself to go with the flow. At the end of my trading day, do you know what I do? Turn the fucking chart off. Go spend the money. Get drunk. Get off. Get ready to be amazed by tomorrow's action. In trading, if it is not patently obvious to you what is going on without reference to history, you are not one with the market. Do you know that I can diddle a pussy for as long as the market is open? I have trained all ten fingers and both big toes to wiggle in sequence and never get tired. As long as I feed them champagne.

Redneck · Jul 16, 2012

Quote from macattack:

You & Redneck say not to read trading books..............to stop listening to other people...............to stop searching for trading tips..................and instead to think for yourself & actually use your brain.

But then you post charts here that require passwords & talk about actual trades & you obviously post here so people will read your posts.

So how does that differ from somebody reading a trading book? You & Redneck can't be the only 2 traders in the world that don't write rubbish.

Do you think the people that read this thread are still stuck in the same loop searching & searching for trading advice from the brain of somebody else?
That would seem to be the conclusion based on all that you have written.

So I see the value in your past posts about thinking & Montaigne & Boyd & other similar thoughts, but now that you're going into actual charts & trading tips how does that differ from a trading book............many of which can be found for free on the internet or at the library?

Anyway..........can I have a password?

Damn MAC, busting on ole TO and I

Good to see youâre using critical thinking, clear eyes, and common sense

Which has been one of the overriding themes here all along

Keep it up

=======================================

Fact â my entire trading repertoire was simply me reading otherâs stuff, then piecing together my own

Fact â I only became profitable once I took complete ownership of it â which included not listening to others

I can guarantee you, and everyone else reading this â you will only become profitable once;

You piece together your own trading methodology/ approach
You stop listening to others (including me)
You take complete control of your methodology/ approach (all of it)

================================

You and RN canât be the only 2 traders in the world that donât write rubbish

I completely agree with youâ¦., in fact there are a few traders on this site; who post, and have posted â very good stuff

And Iâve never said otherwise

===============================

Do I think people who read this are stuck in the same loop

I have no ideaâ¦

Most donât post questions â so I can only assume they either know how to trade, and are simply getting entertainmentâ¦ or are too reluctant to ask questions

413,057 views, with only 3198 posts as I write this â you do the math

==============================
Aside;

I try to answer every question Iâm asked â straight upâ¦, the problem is the one asking the question, more times than not, doesnât like the answerâ¦

And I be damned if Iâm going to argue with them

You ask, Iâll answer, not my problem if you donât like the answerâ¦

Because the bottom line is; each of us must figure out what works for us â then do it (Iâll repeat; THEN DO IT)

In my case, Iâve built my entire belief system, and my entire trading approach around one simple concept

The mkt is uncertain

I believe that way, I trade that way, and consequently what ever trading crap I spout is geared that way

So donât come bitchin to me if youâre looking for certainty and I have none to giveâ¦ or youâre looking for the way YOU should be trading â and I donât have the answerâ¦.

=======================================

Now OTOH

Shall we point some common sense and clears eyes your way

Youâve said before you know how to trade and donât need this threadâ¦., but yet you persist in coming back

Hell youâve even questioned my use of Sir â politeness really that foreign of a concept

And this very post of yours is so passive aggressive toward TO and I â it ainât even funny

Then of course you ask for the pwd...w/ a smiley no less

Look I really donât question, or care about your motivesâ¦ either youâre profitable, or youâre not

I simply ask that you get on one side of the fenceâ¦. or the other

======================================================

For the record

Iâve already stated the absolute bottom line for profitable trading â in this thread â and in no uncertain terms

Do it.. or donât do itâ¦ either way it wonât affect me one iotaâ¦.

So obviously now, there is nothing more I can do..., or post â is there

Also for the record; best you read this post matter of factlyâ¦ any other way and youâre injecting some sort of emotion that simply doesnât exist on my part

Be up to TO whether you get the pwd..., or not â his chart..., his method..., his hard work

RN

poland · Jul 16, 2012

RN,

thanks for sharing and pointing the direction.
I agree we all have to find our way on our own....

The Oracle · Jul 16, 2012

Quote from macattack:

You & Redneck say not to read trading books..............to stop listening to other people...............to stop searching for trading tips..................and instead to think for yourself & actually use your brain.

But then you post charts here that require passwords & talk about actual trades & you obviously post here so people will read your posts.

So how does that differ from somebody reading a trading book? You & Redneck can't be the only 2 traders in the world that don't write rubbish.

Do you think the people that read this thread are still stuck in the same loop searching & searching for trading advice from the brain of somebody else?
That would seem to be the conclusion based on all that you have written.

So I see the value in your past posts about thinking & Montaigne & Boyd & other similar thoughts, but now that you're going into actual charts & trading tips how does that differ from a trading book............many of which can be found for free on the internet or at the library?

Anyway..........can I have a password?

no..why..cause it will not benefit u at this stage

actually..TO is considering to not post any more charts of videos..it just so happens that TO's latest hard work is turning out to be far better than he imagined..and..it would be just plain damn silly to give it away..especially to people who do not understand what is involved in progressing at trading

u must learn to read between the lines..everything u do should be for UR benefit..fuk everyone else..and if that means using other people..if u want to call it that..to stimulate ur mind..so that u can come up with some new idea that is beneficial..then just do it

others may also benefit in the process..but..if they do it will be up to them solely..not TO or RN..or even JH himself

to advance in trading..u need to get the fukin lead out of ur pants..cop the fuk on reading bullshit about nothing of value..and put in the hard work to find out what works for YOU..and what does not

so MK..do u see what a kind of a bollox TO really is..but..TO is just a little pussy cat compared to the fukin bastards that run these markets

as RN keeps saying..go figure

i will be keeping a record of my development/testing/progress..screenshots and videos..and may post some of it later..or may not..it all depends on how i feel..and what people post

posting will be curtailed for now..have some serious work to start on now as excel file is now complete..so..advice for others..should u care to accept it..is..trade what u see..not what u think u see

TO

btw..please feel free to call TO a bastard if u like..for TO takes no offense at such names..in fact..it makes him smile..as it means he is getting closer to the real bastards

The Oracle · Jul 16, 2012

Quote from Redneck:

Damn MAC, busting on ole TO and I

Good to see youâre using critical thinking, clear eyes, and common sense

Which has been one of the overriding themes here all along

Keep it up

=======================================

Fact â my entire trading repertoire was simply me reading otherâs stuff, then piecing together my own

Fact â I only became profitable once I took complete ownership of it â which included not listening to others

I can guarantee you, and everyone else reading this â you will only become profitable once;

You piece together your own trading methodology/ approach
You stop listening to others (including me)
You take complete control of your methodology/ approach (all of it)

================================

You and RN canât be the only 2 traders in the world that donât write rubbish

I completely agree with youâ¦., in fact there are a few traders on this site; who post, and have posted â very good stuff

And Iâve never said otherwise

===============================

Do I think people who read this are stuck in the same loop

I have no ideaâ¦

Most donât post questions â so I can only assume they either know how to trade, and are simply getting entertainmentâ¦ or are too reluctant to ask questions

413,057 views, with only 3198 posts as I write this â you do the math

==============================
Aside;

I try to answer every question Iâm asked â straight upâ¦, the problem is the one asking the question, more times than not, doesnât like the answerâ¦

And I be damned if Iâm going to argue with them

You ask, Iâll answer, not my problem if you donât like the answerâ¦

Because the bottom line is; each of us must figure out what works for us â then do it (Iâll repeat; THEN DO IT)

In my case, Iâve built my entire belief system, and my entire trading approach around one simple concept

The mkt is uncertain

I believe that way, I trade that way, and consequently what ever trading crap I spout is geared that way

So donât come bitchin to me if youâre looking for certainty and I have none to giveâ¦ or youâre looking for the way YOU should be trading â and I donât have the answerâ¦.

=======================================

Now OTOH

Shall we point some common sense and clears eyes your way

Youâve said before you know how to trade and donât need this threadâ¦., but yet you persist in coming back

Hell youâve even questioned my use of Sir â politeness really that foreign of a concept

And this very post of yours is so passive aggressive toward TO and I â it ainât even funny

Then of course you ask for the pwd...w/ a smiley no less

Look I really donât question, or care about your motivesâ¦ either youâre profitable, or youâre not

I simply ask that you get on one side of the fenceâ¦. or the other

======================================================

For the record

Iâve already stated the absolute bottom line for profitable trading â in this thread â and in no uncertain terms

Do it.. or donât do itâ¦ either way it wonât affect me one iotaâ¦.

So obviously now, there is nothing more I can do..., or post â is there

Also for the record; best you read this post matter of factlyâ¦ any other way and youâre injecting some sort of emotion that simply doesnât exist on my part

Be up to TO whether you get the pwd..., or not â his chart..., his method..., his hard work

RN

RN..must say..u always have the right answers

TO has met many traders over the years..and..as of now..there are but 2 that have been able to show TO that they know what it is they speak about..and RN is one of them..the other..well..lets just say he does not post on silly websites anymore

pity we live in different parts of the world..but maybe some day..who knows

keep kickin ass

TO

gktk · Jul 16, 2012

phew away for a week and struggling to get through the JH nonsense, don't they have an ignore button on ET?

Re: below, i see the offer being hit and refreshing so maybe an iceberg order is in play but volume so low unless it is ETH.

Bids are increasing but not being hit, so someone is making the bid look heavy whilst absorbing all offers ie potential couple ticks down it might go.

assuming volume is coded green for mkt buys and red for mkt sells

My untrained eye can sometimes spot this activity but only with much greater volume.

Quote from The Oracle:

this screenshot was taken about 1/2 way thru development..and this section of FFT is now complete

columns are obvious
the bottom of ask..all green..was due to formatting not been complete..so ignore this section
as for rest of colors..care to guess what they mean..and what benefits they are?

top right chart..price..about 50 prints..which have now been extended
bot right chart..bid/ask/volume..same extension

as mentioned..the last price updates in less than 1 second after the print appears on the IB booktrader..which i find..eh OK

btw..this can be used for stocks..as well as futures

TO

Mysteron · Jul 16, 2012

Hi RN,

Your posts are appreciated, incisive and to the point.

However

, looking at your last post I just have to clarify something as I think you may have confused an old post of mine with those of MK, then again maybe you are referring to something MK did say, I'm not sure. I won't try to find my old post but I think last year I sensed wrongly that this thread was drying up and that it had served its purpose for me at least, and said something along the lines that I wouldn't post here again on the grounds that I felt I had gained everything that I needed to know.

Note the last point 'everything that I needed to know', does not imply that I think I know everything or anything at all, just that a point had been reached when the trawling for information had ended. Instead the focus was to be on what I was doing when trading, to monitor and correct. Once the trading method had been decided, implementing it was at times a problem because there is no one looking over my shoulder to point out my mistakes or confirm my correct behaviour. Once there is confidence in the overall trading method, I believe that learning to behave correctly in the face of uncertainty is the key to making it in this game, and that learning process requires practice.

Its clear to me that if trading isn't going well, that repeatedly changing the method, charting tools, broker, looking outwards for books, courses and scouring the internet forums for free trading info just is not the answer. Its a natural thing to do and most will go through that process to an extent before either giving up or looking inwards for answers.

Looking inwards for answers, what does it mean? For me it means monitoring what I am doing, observing myself to see how well I follow the plan as if I was watching someone else. Just looking at the trading account in the short term for increases isn't right because bad trading behaviour can lead to gains, only to find that an entire month of gains are wiped out in one day due to the same behaviour, one of my own distant experiences in fact. Making money and hanging on to it are the aim. That can only happen consistently in the long term if the trading actions each day are correct in some sense. Really, trading should be easy as there are only a few actions to get right. Some things that I monitored to determine where problems occur:

1 What initiated the trade, what did you see?
2 Trade direction long, short how is it correlated with stock and index movement?
3 Was the target eventually hit or not?
4 Was the stop hit or not?
5 When was the entry made, what did you actually do?
6 When was the exit made, what did you actually do?
7 Was the trade size correct?

The above are some general points for anyone to consider, not really seeking advice for myself, just stating an approach I found useful. They may seem trivial but getting the details of trade behaviour and timing correct through practice is surely the thing to focus on, and account growth should follow as a consequence.

So why do I bother to visit this thread, when I feel that I'm on the right track? Its a good question, what is the point? There are no other sites that I post on at the moment. One reason is that its good to hear the views of other traders and this is my only means of doing so, even if those views conflict with mine or concern trading methods that I don't use. Curiosity and learning are ever present.

RN, as for Sir, I can see that you use the term literally as a politeness. I recall many years ago watching a stand up commedian making a wise crack about someone calling him Sir, but spelled cur. I made a similar wise crack a while back - apologies.

jack hershey · Jul 16, 2012

I'm reversing long on bar 3 and 4.