Quite defensive, aren't you?
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Why everything you've been told about evolution is wrong
- Thread starter jficquette
- Start date
I don't think I have ever said that doing good and being good-hearted were necessarily the product of theism, however there are few atheists who have a developed moral system like Kant and others of great intellect.
Most atheists, especially those who frequent ET are not of great intellect or of any high moral standard in particular. They are quite similar to the in name only Christians, etc.
Fear is a motivator to do good. So is a deep understanding of a true moral philosophy of doing good for the sake of goodness itself.
America is spinning into the abyss essentially because so many Americans lack a conscience of doing the right and moral thing. Facts bear this out in behavioral studies.
In America we see a decline of both...good works out of the spirit of goodness, or good works out of a desire to be rewarded by God in some manner...
The rise of atheistic science has weakened the hold of Christianity and Judaism's philosophy for doing good. It is a joke to see the so called Christians chase materialism, and the fallen atheistic Jews to ignore the laws of Moses.
Equally, those who have rejected the moral values of western religions aren't all that concerned about doing the right thing...
It is a decline in true spiritual values in America, the rise of materialism and the fallacy that greater material gain leads to contentment. I say both go hand in hand, i.e. the decline of decent spiritual values and the rise of atheistic science that rationalizes self centered behavior as laudable.
Look at the right wingers who are opposed to human beings, Americans, getting proper health care?
What kind of moral philosophy is that?
Most atheists, especially those who frequent ET are not of great intellect or of any high moral standard in particular. They are quite similar to the in name only Christians, etc.
Fear is a motivator to do good. So is a deep understanding of a true moral philosophy of doing good for the sake of goodness itself.
America is spinning into the abyss essentially because so many Americans lack a conscience of doing the right and moral thing. Facts bear this out in behavioral studies.
In America we see a decline of both...good works out of the spirit of goodness, or good works out of a desire to be rewarded by God in some manner...
The rise of atheistic science has weakened the hold of Christianity and Judaism's philosophy for doing good. It is a joke to see the so called Christians chase materialism, and the fallen atheistic Jews to ignore the laws of Moses.
Equally, those who have rejected the moral values of western religions aren't all that concerned about doing the right thing...
It is a decline in true spiritual values in America, the rise of materialism and the fallacy that greater material gain leads to contentment. I say both go hand in hand, i.e. the decline of decent spiritual values and the rise of atheistic science that rationalizes self centered behavior as laudable.
Look at the right wingers who are opposed to human beings, Americans, getting proper health care?
What kind of moral philosophy is that?
Quote from stu:
You don't have to be angry or fear imaginary beings or be a Budhist to do good or to be good-hearted.
Goodness is of itself, so religion is surperfluous, and is often seen as not beneficial to bringing good about.
Exactly. Morality and decency come from genuine empathy. Everything else is only so much fluff and fold. If you repeatedly need to remind a child or adult to walk in another's shoes, then the battle is likely lost. Books, sermons and other teachings will largely fall on deaf ears at that point. The various and many bible thumpers and cult leaders of one stripe or another who were outed for all manner of wrongdoing are a case in point. Goodness, if it exists, comes from within, and not from a mystical belief.Quote from stu:
You don't have to be angry or fear imaginary beings or be a Budhist to do good or to be good-hearted.
Goodness is of itself, so religion is surperfluous, and is often seen as not beneficial to bringing good about.
Good behavior comes from motive for good behavior.
Whether or not that motive is fear, or love of God and wanting to please God, or and evolved personality who has a broader vision of the good of society is not generally the issue. The fact is that the rise of atheistic science has not produced a more moral society. Truth is we have a less moral society concurrent with the rise of atheistic science...
Whether or not that motive is fear, or love of God and wanting to please God, or and evolved personality who has a broader vision of the good of society is not generally the issue. The fact is that the rise of atheistic science has not produced a more moral society. Truth is we have a less moral society concurrent with the rise of atheistic science...
Quote from Gabfly1:
Exactly. Morality and decency come from genuine empathy. Everything else is only so much fluff and fold. If you repeatedly need to remind a child or adult to walk in another's shoes, then the battle is likely lost. Books, sermons and other teachings will largely fall on deaf ears at that point. The various and many bible thumpers and cult leaders of one stripe or another who were outed for all manner of wrongdoing are a case in point. Goodness, if it exists, comes from within, and not from a mystical belief.
Science was never intended to be a substitute or precursor to a conscience. There is no overlap. Science is simply about knowledge and its uses. It is neither about morality or immorality.Quote from OPTIONAL777:
Good behavior comes from motive for good behavior.
Whether or not that motive is fear, or love of God and wanting to please God, or and evolved personality who has a broader vision of the good of society is not generally the issue. The fact is that the rise of atheistic science has not produced a more moral society. Truth is we have a less moral society concurrent with the rise of atheistic science...
As I just wrote in my last post, morality comes from empathy, which comes from within. That society may or may not be in moral decline has nothing to do with religion or god. Fear is not a very good motivator for good conduct because fear will always look for an angle. You are less likely to transgress if you know it to be wrong and genuinely don't wish to do wrong. If you are only motivated by fear, then you will look for loopholes and angles. Who, then, is of higher moral caliber? For those motivated by fear, morality will be superficial and only for show. Just look at the "Christian" Right to which you regularly refer. They are not atheists. They claim to be spiritual. They pray to their god with regularity. They are "god fearing." And, as you yourself noted, they do not seem to wish for their less fortunate fellow Americans to access affordable health insurance. And let's not even get started on the countless bible thumpers who have commited various crimes and all manner of hypocrisies.
Morality has nothing to do with a belief in god or in the afterlife or creationism. Those are merely superfluous ornaments.
"Science was never intended to be a substitute or precursor to a conscience."
No, but the majority of scientists over the course of history did have a conscience implanted through the process of religious belief...
The Christian right are in name only Christians, they do not genuinely follow the teachings of Jesus Christ. I have already put them on the same level as the atheists when it comes being self absorbed and sinful...
No, but the majority of scientists over the course of history did have a conscience implanted through the process of religious belief...
The Christian right are in name only Christians, they do not genuinely follow the teachings of Jesus Christ. I have already put them on the same level as the atheists when it comes being self absorbed and sinful...
Quote from Gabfly1:
Science was never intended to be a substitute or precursor to a conscience. There is no overlap. Science is simply about knowledge and its uses. It is neither about morality or immorality.
As I just wrote in my last post, morality comes from empathy, which comes from within. That society may or may not be in moral decline has nothing to do with religion or god. Fear is not a very good motivator for good conduct because fear will always look for an angle. You are less likely to transgress if you know it to be wrong and genuinely don't wish to do wrong. If you are only motivated by fear, then you will look for loopholes and angles. Who, then, is of higher moral caliber? For those motivated by fear, morality will be superficial and only for show. Just look at the "Christian" Right to which you regularly refer. They are not atheists. They claim to be spiritual. They pray to their god with regularity. They are "god fearing." And, as you yourself noted, they do not seem to wish for their less fortunate fellow Americans to access affordable health insurance. And let's not even get started on the countless bible thumpers who have commited crimes and all manner of hypocrisies.
Morality has nothing to do with a belief in god or in the afterlife or creationism. Those are mere ornaments.
No. A conscience is the product of empathy. There are empathic people who are not religious and there are people with religious upbringings who are not empathic. You will never teach a sociopath to have a genuine conscience regardless of the nature of his upbringing. The world is populated with many sociopaths on both sides of the religious divide. Religion itself is neither here nor there. A child's upbringing need not be religious in order to be effective. However, the upbringing itself is not the only determinant in the outcome. A parent may point to the Golden Rule, but unless the child truly experiences empathy, it will largely be meaningless, irrespective of whether you shroud the Rule in religious mysticism or present it as simple humanism.Quote from OPTIONAL777:
...No, but the majority of scientists over the course of history did have a conscience implanted through the process of religious belief...
Quote from Gabfly1:
As I just wrote in my last post, morality comes from empathy, which comes from within. That society may or may not be in moral decline has nothing to do with religion or god. Fear is not a very good motivator for good conduct because fear will always look for an angle.
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Look how the baby show empathy. And the baby does not have religion or god when they are little. They try to help. Why? Not from fear of god or punishment. Video on this link too.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/11641621/
False.
A conscience is what keeps people from doing what they think is wrong.
The ultimate question is:
"If no one is watching, and if you can get away with doing something wrong, so you do it?"
If someone has a conscience of what is right and wrong, they don't do something wrong, or they do something right even when non one is looking or they won't get caught doing something wrong.
Has nothing actually to do with empathy. Empathy may be part of someone's moral construct, but conscience is simply carrying out what a person's moral concepts are.
A conscience is what keeps people from doing what they think is wrong.
The ultimate question is:
"If no one is watching, and if you can get away with doing something wrong, so you do it?"
If someone has a conscience of what is right and wrong, they don't do something wrong, or they do something right even when non one is looking or they won't get caught doing something wrong.
Has nothing actually to do with empathy. Empathy may be part of someone's moral construct, but conscience is simply carrying out what a person's moral concepts are.
Quote from Gabfly1:
No. A conscience is the product of empathy. There are empathic people who are not religious and there are people with religious upbringings who are not empathic. You will never teach a sociopath to have a genuine conscience regardless of the nature of his upbringing. The world is populated with many sociopaths on both sides of the religious divide. Religion itself is neither here nor there. A child's upbringing need not be religious in order to be effective. However, the upbringing itself is not the only influence in the outcome. A parent may point to the Golden Rule, but unless the child truly experiences empathy, it will largely be meaningless, irrespective of whether you shroud the Rule in religious mysticism or simple humanism.
Perhaps we need to better familiarize ourselves with the word empathy. Regardless, at this point we are getting bogged down on semantics. Let's play it your way. In my previous post, replace "empathy" with "conscience." The argument and conclusion in my post remain the same.Quote from OPTIONAL777:
False.
A conscience is what keeps people from doing what they think is wrong.
The ultimate question is:
"If no one is watching, and if you can get away with doing something wrong, so you do it?"
If someone has a conscience of what is right and wrong, they don't do something wrong, or they do something right even when non one is looking or they won't get caught doing something wrong.
Has nothing actually to do with empathy. Empathy may be part of someone's moral construct, but conscience is simply carrying out what a person's moral concepts are.