Why doesn't Germany just invade Greece?

[d08]

Quote from morganist:

Germay needs the weaker states in the Euro to make their economy work.

http://morganisteconomics.blogspot.co.uk/2012/04/eurozone-is-polarised-economic-model.html

While I basically don't disagree, there are some issues.

You wrote:
"There is a lot of evidence suggesting the European currency union has led to a decrease in exports from the weaker member states. In 2009 the level of exports from Greece fell to $18.64 billion from $29.14 billion in the previous year."

Greece has had the euro from 2001, so to compare 2009 to the previous year makes little sense. You're being selective with statistics.

Average annual GDP growth:
1991–2000 2.36%
2001–2007 4.11%

So you see that in the period prior to joining the Eurozone, Greece actually did worse than the years after. Also, 2009 was the global recession year so exports fell significantly almost everywhere.
Before I thought you were objective but now it seems you have an agenda.

 

[morganist]

Quote from d08:

While I basically don't disagree, there are some issues.

You wrote:
"There is a lot of evidence suggesting the European currency union has led to a decrease in exports from the weaker member states. In 2009 the level of exports from Greece fell to $18.64 billion from $29.14 billion in the previous year."

Greece has had the euro from 2001, so to compare 2009 to the previous year makes little sense. You're being selective with statistics.

Average annual GDP growth:
1991�2000 2.36%
2001�2007 4.11%

So you see that in the period prior to joining the Eurozone, Greece actually did worse than the years after. Also, 2009 was the global recession year so exports fell significantly almost everywhere.
Before I thought you were objective but now it seems you have an agenda.

No I don't agree. The year after Greece joined the Euro its exports fell to a third of the previous year. I wanted to use that statistic but could not find it. If you look it up you might. I might have a look for it but I can asure it was. I remember reading it when I was researching my book. Anyway even if you take the relationship of Greece exports out the success of Germany is built on the failure of the weaker states.

 

[intradaybill]

Quote from d08:

Greece has had the euro from 2001, so to compare 2009 to the previous year makes little sense. You're being selective with statistics.

Average annual GDP growth:
1991–2000 2.36%
2001–2007 4.11%

Stop being a German policy propagandist please. This is becoming so obvious. A 2% growth at a public debt equal to 50% of GDP that involves things like sales of locally made electrical appliances - something that the Greeks were very good at before joinning the EU and actually had large export volumes to countries like Russia - is much better that a 4% GDP growth based on service sector growth and 100% debt on GDP. If on top of this you add the inability to devalue currency to stay competitive then the difference is dramatic.

It is obvious that Germany milked the south with promises of a "lovely union". Now they play hard ball and they want to lend their surplus at high interest rates. EU must be dissolved immediately. This is a sick political game that drives people in many countries to povetry and jobs to China and India.

USA must demand the dissolvement of EU. Otherwise this may go like this for a long time and US will suffer too. It is better for USA to drive the dissolvement rather than become a victim of it. Anyway, EU exists because USA wanted it. Europe exists because USA was there and did not let the Russian get the whole thing.

 

[piezoe]

Quote from goodgoing:

True but the question is why the others bought into this scheme. Stupid men, deceived or committed treason? Because they basically sold out their nations to Germany. Greece had a mere 22% of GDP debt before it joined the old ECU in the 1970s.

http://www.economicsinpictures.com/2011/09/greek-debtgdp-only-22-in-1980.html

This is the proof of the zero-sum game. GIIPS deficit = Germany surplus:

Source: Paul Krugman blog

Germany orchestrated the largest wealth transfer in the history of humanity with a bogus currency union and now many millions suffer in Spain, Italy, Greece, Portugal, etc. Someone has suggested that Germany should go again through the Hague court, its politicians send to jail and the country must be broken to little pieces so it is not a threat to the world any longer. Although I do not agree, I understand why people are thinking these extremes.

Did Germany have a copy of Ronald Reagan's and Margaret Thatcher's play book, or did GIIPS hire Goldman Sachs consultants? This kind of thing can't happen without first-rate economic minds being involved!

 

[piezoe]

Quote from pentothal:



"without the intent of making some type of return"???
pure ignorance...

My thought was exactly the same as yours, but sadly the returns have not always been as advertised, but without exception a few made nice profits. ("Nice" may not be the right word here.)

 

[d08]

Quote from intradaybill:

USA must demand the dissolvement of EU. Otherwise this may go like this for a long time and US will suffer too. It is better for USA to drive the dissolvement rather than become a victim of it. Anyway, EU exists because USA wanted it. Europe exists because USA was there and did not let the Russian get the whole thing.

I ignored the first part as it just included personal attacks/opinions.
The EU was made because the political heads figured that any commercial leverage could only be gotten with a significant union - threatening to ban or tax a product only in the Netherlands has little effect but to do that in the whole of EU has significant consequences for any manufacturer.
The US would love the dissolution of EU as they'd benefit nicely. It's much easier to push around smaller countries but not so with a big, relatively influential union.

Besides that, I agree that the EU must be dissolved, I voted against joining and I've been against the EU for as long as I can remember.

 

[d08]

Quote from morganist:

No I don't agree. The year after Greece joined the Euro its exports fell to a third of the previous year. I wanted to use that statistic but could not find it. If you look it up you might. I might have a look for it but I can asure it was. I remember reading it when I was researching my book. Anyway even if you take the relationship of Greece exports out the success of Germany is built on the failure of the weaker states.

I found the numbers with relative ease and "fell to a third of the previous year" is complete nonsense.
2002 was the only year in which Greek exports fell before the recession hit. Yet, exports also fell in the US, Italy, Norway and Switzerland that year.
Any union is built the same way, you could say exactly the same thing about US states that export the most, what if they had their own currency?

http://www.cepr.net/index.php/blogs...ce-joining-the-euro-but-its-imports-rose-more

 

[intradaybill]

Quote from d08:

Besides that, I agree that the EU must be dissolved, I voted against joining and I've been against the EU for as long as I can remember.

Good! You see we have some common base here. It is better to build on that. You have concentrated on attacking countries like Greece on the basis that they do not produce anything. Well, their manufacturing base was destroyed after they surrendered their monetary capacity to Germany. That was the plan. In addition, their agricultural base was destroyed by EU proportionality legislation and institution of quotas. That is all very unfair because Germany now calls the south corrupt instead of victims of common currency and demand more austerity. It is war over there. WW III started with the euro. Time for an end to this crap.

 

[Code7]

Quote from goodgoing:

Germany orchestrated the largest wealth transfer in the history of humanity with a bogus currency union and now many millions suffer in Spain, Italy, Greece, Portugal, etc. Someone has suggested that Germany should go again through the Hague court, its politicians send to jail and the country must be broken to little pieces so it is not a threat to the world any longer. Although I do not agree, I understand why people are thinking these extremes.

You are retarded beyond belief.

Real goods and services are wealth. That wealth got transferred from Germany to the PIIGS.

What did Germany get in return? Nothing. Worthless paper money.

A debt bubble waiting to burst and as soon as the whole house of cards falls apart, Germany will be left with nothing.

The PIIGS are still going to keep all the goods and services, the real wealth that they acquired through reckless debt expansion.

PIIGS enjoyed record low borrowing rates in the first years of the currency union but they didn't improve their ability to compete with all that cheap money, they just consumed, consumed, consumed.

 

[C6H12O6]

Quote from goodgoing:

Germany orchestrated the largest wealth transfer in the history of humanity with a bogus currency union and now many millions suffer in Spain, Italy, Greece, Portugal, etc. Someone has suggested that Germany should go again through the Hague court, its politicians send to jail and the country must be broken to little pieces so it is not a threat to the world any longer. Although I do not agree, I understand why people are thinking these extremes.

The following is just an example:
Before the euro, german industry suffered and could not compete with northern italian industry and the italian Lira "competitive devaluation".
Now with the euro Germany is achieving the destruction of the italian industry.

Much more effective than WWII, isn't it ?