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why does religion matter?
- Thread starter horryclutch
- Start date
Quote from ToTrade:
Read this again:
If you were to read the bible or hear a sermon and this caused you to come to faith, it is because it is a confirmation of what you already know inside. That is true faith.
Quote from ToTrade:
I believe in electricity because I've seen evidence of it, even though I can't see it.
I believe in God because I have seen evidence of God, even though I have not seen God.
So which is it? That you already know it inside, or that you've seen the evidence?
Religion matters in politics because it is the most important road to winning. By dressing the religion and moral gown, you attract most of the masses. Do you think anyone who don't go to church will ever have a chance to win? I doubt it. Not only christians will not elect him, muslims will not as well. My guess is all people of religion will not elect him. So religion is an essential tool to win.
On the other side, my limited knowledge of life and politics will tell me, people with strong religious convictions are to worst to role and they make to most devastating decisions and usually lead their countries to war. In democracies that separate state and church, they call them conservatives.
When I grew up, We learned about this godless, evil, destructive principle called separation of state and church. We have been taught that Islam is the true religion of God and it had to rule and be part of our daily life. Even having sex should be according to quran and Mohammed teaching, we get rewarded from god for it. We chanted that Islam is the only solution to life crises, .....Boy, did I truly believe of these concepts, you bet, strongly. Islam made all the sense to me, and this is why I understand how religious people think.
When I wake up and no blind any more. I can see that religion is the source of all evil, it is a discriminatory system. Keep you under darkness, against rational, reason, science, change, ....
I know muslim and arabic world crises and dark ages are due to Islam. I will be killed if I say that backhome.
Know In America, I live. I am so concerned about the future of this country. If the religious people succeed in pushing their agenda, this country will enter its dark ages. Signs are not good.
bottom line, There is no genius, constructive, good principle as the separation of state and church. If we are to help the world and keep peace, promote morals, and kill discrimination we should keep religion out of our political life.
On the other side, my limited knowledge of life and politics will tell me, people with strong religious convictions are to worst to role and they make to most devastating decisions and usually lead their countries to war. In democracies that separate state and church, they call them conservatives.
When I grew up, We learned about this godless, evil, destructive principle called separation of state and church. We have been taught that Islam is the true religion of God and it had to rule and be part of our daily life. Even having sex should be according to quran and Mohammed teaching, we get rewarded from god for it. We chanted that Islam is the only solution to life crises, .....Boy, did I truly believe of these concepts, you bet, strongly. Islam made all the sense to me, and this is why I understand how religious people think.
When I wake up and no blind any more. I can see that religion is the source of all evil, it is a discriminatory system. Keep you under darkness, against rational, reason, science, change, ....
I know muslim and arabic world crises and dark ages are due to Islam. I will be killed if I say that backhome.
Know In America, I live. I am so concerned about the future of this country. If the religious people succeed in pushing their agenda, this country will enter its dark ages. Signs are not good.
bottom line, There is no genius, constructive, good principle as the separation of state and church. If we are to help the world and keep peace, promote morals, and kill discrimination we should keep religion out of our political life.
Excellent post. I know that the Arab world's potential was stifled by religion because many of history's great minds came from that part of the world before religious fervor took hold. I, too, share your concern if the Western world should adopt similar fundamentalist principles. The apparent trend in the US is not a comforting one.Quote from Jehad:
Religion matters in politics because it is the most important road to winning. By dressing the religion and moral gown, you attract most of the masses. Do you think anyone who don't go to church will ever have a chance to win? I doubt it. Not only christians will not elect him, muslims will not as well. My guess is all people of religion will not elect him. So religion is an essential tool to win.
On the other side, my limited knowledge of life and politics will tell me, people with strong religious convictions are to worst to role and they make to most devastating decisions and usually lead their countries to war. In democracies that separate state and church, they call them conservatives.
When I grew up, We learned about this godless, evil, destructive principle called separation of state and church. We have been taught that Islam is the true religion of God and it had to rule and be part of our daily life. Even having sex should be according to quran and Mohammed teaching, we get rewarded from god for it. We chanted that Islam is the only solution to life crises, .....Boy, did I truly believe of these concepts, you bet, strongly. Islam made all the sense to me, and this is why I understand how religious people think.
When I wake up and no blind any more. I can see that religion is the source of all evil, it is a discriminatory system. Keep you under darkness, against rational, reason, science, change, ....
I know muslim and arabic world crises and dark ages are due to Islam. I will be killed if I say that backhome.
Know In America, I live. I am so concerned about the future of this country. If the religious people succeed in pushing their agenda, this country will enter its dark ages. Signs are not good.
bottom line, There is no genius, constructive, good principle as the separation of state and church. If we are to help the world and keep peace, promote morals, and kill discrimination we should keep religion out of our political life.
I have to agree that was a constructive post. I do not agree with the conclusion but it is a reasonable concern.
I have trouble reconciling the concerns about religion with the fact that since we took talk of God and morals out of schools our culture also seems to be decaying IMHO.
While I know that is a value judgment I think the gangs of today are much worse than the organized crime running those same neighborhoods years ago. back then our criminals still had family values. (this was a bit of an off point joke but...)
I have trouble reconciling the concerns about religion with the fact that since we took talk of God and morals out of schools our culture also seems to be decaying IMHO.
While I know that is a value judgment I think the gangs of today are much worse than the organized crime running those same neighborhoods years ago. back then our criminals still had family values. (this was a bit of an off point joke but...)
I think that has more to do with spurious correlation than causality. Rather than religious instruction, look at how people are raising their children today in the aggregate as compared to a generation or so ago. Morals, empathy and discipline don't really have anything to do with a celestial being somewhere above.Quote from jem:
...I have trouble reconciling the concerns about religion with the fact that since we took talk of God and morals out of schools our culture also seems to be decaying IMHO...
Blaming religion for the human condition of not following the morality of God's law has nothing to do with God.
Again, atheists in the past 100 years have been the cause of more atrocity than genuine peace loving theists, so once again the problem is not about religion directly, nor God, but rather the blame rests squarely on human behavior, and the underlying motives for that behavior.
Booze doesn't make humans drink it, and then drive drunk...
Power doesn't force itself on humans, and then turn them into dictators...
I am not a big supporter of the current brand of organized religions (though they have a right to exist and do their thing as long as it is not controlling government), primarily because the religions we see for the most part are far removed from the spirituality of the Saints who founded those missions in the beginning of their mission.
Man is to blame for the actions of man, and those who think that reason alone is going to be sufficient to solve the problems we have today are not fully cognizant of the nature of the human mind, which is not rational. The human mind simply is not rational. Reason is but tool that the mind at times selects to use.
Reason alone doesn't inspire people to become more humane, nor does atheism alone, nor does ritual and dogma of religions. Reason generally takes a back seat to strong emotions. It is rare to find people who are so strong in their reasoning process that they can consistently rise above their emotions in all situations.
The desire to be more humane has to come from a strong longing to be more humane, and a faith that being more humane is not only the right thing to do, but is beneficial beyond the moment...
Reason appealing to reason simply doesn't work, something more is needed.
"Morals, empathy and discipline don't really come from a celestial being somewhere above."
Does knowledge come from a teacher?
Not really. The teacher can present the knowledge, but it is up to the student to accept it, and upon accepting that information, taking what is being offered into their hearts and mind...then and only then does it become knowledge for the student.
The information is presented by the teacher, then the student decides. God presents the information through His Saints, then the people make up their own mind and do what they like.
God has given rules of living for the good of man, but man's decision to ignore those rules, to act inhumanely, has nothing to do with God. It has to do with free will to choose.
Creed and dogma, which are religions as we observe them today, do not matter, as long as the heart and mind are willing to be inhumane.
If a religion is not filling the heart of its followers with the love of God, with the desire to be more loving to their fellow man...then the religion is not working as intended...but God is not to blame, just as a teacher is not to blame for stubborn students, nor parents for stubborn children who are hell bent on behavior that is destructive.
Again, atheists in the past 100 years have been the cause of more atrocity than genuine peace loving theists, so once again the problem is not about religion directly, nor God, but rather the blame rests squarely on human behavior, and the underlying motives for that behavior.
Booze doesn't make humans drink it, and then drive drunk...
Power doesn't force itself on humans, and then turn them into dictators...
I am not a big supporter of the current brand of organized religions (though they have a right to exist and do their thing as long as it is not controlling government), primarily because the religions we see for the most part are far removed from the spirituality of the Saints who founded those missions in the beginning of their mission.
Man is to blame for the actions of man, and those who think that reason alone is going to be sufficient to solve the problems we have today are not fully cognizant of the nature of the human mind, which is not rational. The human mind simply is not rational. Reason is but tool that the mind at times selects to use.
Reason alone doesn't inspire people to become more humane, nor does atheism alone, nor does ritual and dogma of religions. Reason generally takes a back seat to strong emotions. It is rare to find people who are so strong in their reasoning process that they can consistently rise above their emotions in all situations.
The desire to be more humane has to come from a strong longing to be more humane, and a faith that being more humane is not only the right thing to do, but is beneficial beyond the moment...
Reason appealing to reason simply doesn't work, something more is needed.
"Morals, empathy and discipline don't really come from a celestial being somewhere above."
Does knowledge come from a teacher?
Not really. The teacher can present the knowledge, but it is up to the student to accept it, and upon accepting that information, taking what is being offered into their hearts and mind...then and only then does it become knowledge for the student.
The information is presented by the teacher, then the student decides. God presents the information through His Saints, then the people make up their own mind and do what they like.
God has given rules of living for the good of man, but man's decision to ignore those rules, to act inhumanely, has nothing to do with God. It has to do with free will to choose.
Creed and dogma, which are religions as we observe them today, do not matter, as long as the heart and mind are willing to be inhumane.
If a religion is not filling the heart of its followers with the love of God, with the desire to be more loving to their fellow man...then the religion is not working as intended...but God is not to blame, just as a teacher is not to blame for stubborn students, nor parents for stubborn children who are hell bent on behavior that is destructive.
Quote from Thunderdog:
I think that has more to do with spurious correlation than causality. Rather than religious instruction, look at how people are raising their children today in the aggregate as compared to a generation or so ago. Morals, empathy and discipline don't really come from a celestial being somewhere above.
Quote from Jehad:
Know In America, I live. I am so concerned about the future of this country. If the religious people succeed in pushing their agenda, this country will enter its dark ages. Signs are not good.
The religious people pushed their Agenda a long time ago, when they authored the declaration of independence. They ensured that EVERYONE would have freedom of religion, non-religion, speech etc. Unfortunately nowadays people do not so much want freedom of religion, but freedom from religion. Instead of showing the tolerance displayed by the founding fathers for all people, religious or not, they show an intolerance towards religion in general.
Here is a quote:
"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed, by their Creator, with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of Happiness."
I can understand the circumstances that you lived under before, but America is not in the same classification. Any comparison would be unrealistic.
My point was that the apparent increase in moral decay has less to do with religion and more to do with the way that people are being brought up. You seem to hold everyone blameless. Bush would like someone like you.Quote from ZZZzzzzzzz:
...If a religion is not filling the heart of its followers with the love of God, with the desire to be more loving to their fellow man...then the religion is not working as intended...but God is not to blame, just as a teacher is not to blame for stubborn students, nor parents for stubborn children who are hell bent on behavior that is destructive.
Yes, there are some kids who cannot be turned around, but for the most part, those who lack discipline and morals were never taught any. Or at least not enough. It is the absence of parents in sufficient doses, or the absence of good parenting and other important influences on a child rather than an absence of religion that contributes to the phenomenon that jem alluded to. Yes, outside influences are growing in number and kind, and things are a lot different than when we were kids. But if people want to have children, then they should be prepared to take some responsibility for them and raise them properly.