Why creation science is an oxymoron

Quote from kut2k2:

Creationists like to pretend to be scientifically rigorous and say things like "Evolution violates the second law of thermodynamics" without ever providing any proof or anything else beyond a lot of hand-waving and misdirection.

Here's proof that evolution doesn't violate the second law of thermodynamics.

The second law of thermodynamics says that the entropy of a closed system will never decrease: it will either increase or remain the same. Entropy is a non-intuitive scientific concept that more or less equates to a measure of the randomness or disorder of a system. The more entropy in a system, the less ordered it is, as a rule.

The key element of the second law is that it only applies to closed systems. A closed system is a part of the universe that is essentially cut off from the rest of the universe. There is absolutely no exchange of matter or energy between a closed system and the rest of the universe (the "surroundings"). While there is no such as a perfectly closed system in the real world, a good example of a (almost) closed system would be a thermos bottle. You put your favorite beverage, hot or cold, into a well-made thermos bottle and the beverage inside the closed thermos will take a long time to achieve room temperature, unlike an open container that allows a heat exchange to occur readily and rather quickly between the beverage and the ambient atmosphere.

Creationists like to claim that evolution is based upon a decrease in entropy and therefore violates the second law of thermodynamics.

Rather than argue against this unsupported assertion as some scientists have, let's agree for the sake of argument. Fine: in order for evolution to occur in a biological system, there must be some corresponding decrease of entropy within the biological system.

My answer is, So What? The second law doesn't say that entropy can never decrease, it says that entropy can never decrease in a closed system.

The Earth is not a closed system. We receive a humongous amount of solar radiation during the day and re-radiate a goodly portion of it to the night sky.

Furthermore it should be obvious that all of life on earth is dependent directly or indirectly on the sun. Even the things that hate sunlight, like fungus, are totally dependent for their food on stuff that thrives on sunlight. If the sun stopped shining (radiating energy) this minute, all life on earth would be dead in a matter of days, and not just due to the temperature drop. Even if we heated all of Earth's surface with a vast array of geothermal heat exchangers, the lack of photosynthesis would kill the plant life, which would eventually kill all the herbivores and the predators that feed on them.

The sun is a giant thermonuclear furnace. It generates an enormous amount of radiation and has an associated enormous amount of entropy increase due to the spontaneous nuclear reactions responsible for solar energy. Does the "sun-plus-earth's-biosphere" system undergo a net increase in entropy or a net decrease due to evolution?

It turns out that the earth receives less than one billionth of the energy put out by the sun. Let's make the reasonable assumption that sun puts out energy equally in all directions. We are 93 million miles from the sun. The surface area of the earth that receives sunlight is half the total surface area of the earth. So basically we divide half the surface area of the earth (assuming a mean radius of 3,959 miles) by the surface area of a sphere with a radius of 93 million miles and the answer is just under one part per billion.

All of life on earth is the result of less than one billionth the energy output of the sun. Do I really have to argue that the associated entropy increase in the sun completely dwarfs whatever entropy change is taking place on earth due to evolution, be that later change positive or negative?

The second law of thermodynamics tells us nothing about evolution. It simply is not germane.

That's nice but irrelevant until you answer the following:

Is the universe an open or closed system?
 
Quote from Index piker:

That's nice but irrelevant until you answer the following:

Is the universe an open or closed system?
Actually it is your question that is irrelevant. Just to clarify, the second law applies to net entropy change in a closed system, not to every single change in a closed system.

When a body heats up, it gains entropy. When a body cools down, it loses entropy. Bodies cool down all the time, even in closed systems.

When heat moves from a hot object to a cold object, no energy is created or destroyed (the first law of thermodynamics), but the cold object (the warming object) gains more entropy than the hot object (the cooling object) loses so there is a net gain of entropy considering both bodies.

Whether the entire universe is open or closed is not germane.
 
Quote from kut2k2:



1)When heat moves from a hot object to a cold object, no energy is created or destroyed (the first law of thermodynamics), but the cold object (the warming object) gains more entropy than the hot object (the cooling object) loses so there is a net gain of entropy considering both bodies.

2)Whether the entire universe is open or closed is not germane.

1) Bullshit.

2) Now answer the question is the universe an open or closed system?
 
Quote from Index piker:

1) Bullshit.

2) Now answer the question is the universe an open or closed system?
You're not making any sense. As usual. Later.
 
Actually the question is a closed end question, not an open ended question...so as far as a question goes, it makes perfect sense.

Three possible responses from you, assuming you are honest:

1. Yes.
2. No.
3. I don't know.

So which is it?



Quote from kut2k2:

You're not making any sense. As usual. Later.
 
Quote from kut2k2:



1)When a body heats up, it gains entropy. 2)When a body cools down, it loses entropy. 3)Bodies cool down all the time, even in closed systems.

4)When heat moves from a hot object to a cold object, no energy is created or destroyed (the first law of thermodynamics), but the cold object (the warming object) gains more entropy than the hot object (the cooling object) loses so there is a net gain of entropy considering both bodies.


You are so full of shit it's not even funny.
1) yes
2 yes
3) Wrong, the total entropy of the system remains the same.
4) wrong the entropy between both systems remains the same even if you consider 1 or both open.


This another one of your , go back and ask your professors moments.
 
Quote from Index piker:

You are so full of shit it's not even funny.
1) yes
2 yes
3) Wrong, the total entropy of the system remains the same.
4) wrong the entropy between both systems remains the same even if you consider 1 or both open.


This another one of your , go back and ask your professors moments.
Easy to see you flunked your thermo class. Of course you probably never took one and are just talking out of your ass, as usual. Sober up, take your meds, or just plain smarten up. You're embarrassing yourself in this thread.
 
Quote from kut2k2:

Easy to see you flunked your thermo class. Of course you probably never took one and are just talking out of your ass, as usual. Sober up, take your meds, or just plain smarten up. You're embarrassing yourself in this thread.

what a fucking disaster you are ...
 
Quote from kut2k2:

Easy to see you flunked your thermo class. Of course you probably never took one and are just talking out of your ass, as usual. Sober up, take your meds, or just plain smarten up. You're embarrassing yourself in this thread.

I think you just confirmed my pet theory that liberals live in a completely different reality.
 
Quote from OPTIONAL777:

Actually the question is a closed end question, not an open ended question...so as far as a question goes, it makes perfect sense.

Three possible responses from you, assuming you are honest:

1. Yes.
2. No.
3. I don't know.

So which is it?
The question is irrelevant to the thread topic. That is my honest answer.
 
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